P.J. POLICE FILE TRANSLATIONS: RUSSELL O'BRIEN ROGATORY STATEMENT

Russell James O’Brien was questioned on the 8th of April from 9.55 a.m. until 8.18 p.m., divided into 5 distinct time periods (9.55 – 11.30 a.m., 12.01 – 12.50 a.m., 2.06 – 3.55 p.m., 5.15 – 6.56 p.m., and 7.37 – 8.18 p.m.). Officially, all the video images of this day were rendered useless because the video camera didn’t work… which means that Enderby police wants us to believe that, even during pauses, they never verified if the interrogation was being recorded correctly. This was the official version, the one that was offered to the Portuguese authorities. Nevertheless, the truth of facts is different, and Russell O’Brien was questioned again on the 10th of April; this time the camera worked.

Surname: O-BRIEN

Forenames: RUSSELL JAMES

Age: OVER 18 Date of Birth:

Address:

Postcode:

Occupation:

Telephone No:

Statement Date: 08/04/2008 Number of Pages: 1

I am the above named and I live at the address given to the police.

On Tuesday 8th April, 2008, between 09:55am and 11:30am I was interviewed by Detective Constable GIERC at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence.

On Tuesday, 8th of April 2008, between 12:01pm and 12:50pm I was interviewed by Detective Constable GIERC at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence.

On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 14:06 hours and 15:55 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable GIERC at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. During the interview I produced the following exhibits:

Sketch map ' Praia Da Luz (RJO/100)
Table Plan ' Tapas Restaurant (RJO/101)
Search Sketch ' Praia Da Luz (RJO/102)
Phone List ' (RJO/103)

On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 17:15 hours and 18:56 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable GIERC at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence.

On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 19:37 hours and 20:18 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable GIERC at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence.

This statement is made by myself and is true to the
best of my knowledge and belief.

Signed: RUSSELL O'BRIEN Signature witnessed by: A J GIERC DC 1578

I have previously made my statement to the Portuguese Police in relation to my holiday visit to Portugal in April-May 2007. I stayed in the resort of Praia Da Luz and was there at the time of the disappearance of Madeleine Beth MCCANN. I had travelled to Portugal with my wife Jane TANNER, and our two daughters Ella and Evie, also travelling with us was our friends Matthew OLDFIELD, Rachael MAMPILLY and their daughter Grace. We were due to meet our mutual friends over in Portugal David and Fiona PAYNE, their two daughters Lilly and Scarlett along with Fiona’s mother Dianne WEBSTER, and Kate and Gerry MCCANN and their three children Madeleine, Sean and Amelie. We arrived in Portugal on Saturday 28th April 2007.

On the 8th April 2008 officers from Leicestershire Constabulary interviewed me in order to clarify certain points and in order for me to provide further information where possible. The interviews were visually recorded, however I understand that due to technical difficulties the equipment failed to record. I have been informed that these questions arise from an official request from the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Criminal Code in addition to English Law.

I have been informed that this statement has been made from the monitoring notes which were taken at the time of the interviews being conducted.

I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC. I wish to add that Jane’s statement covered our routine from the 28th April 2007-2nd May 2007 quite comprehensively and my original Portuguese statement referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me.

The following statements are answers given in response to the questions asked of me during the interviews, in the order that the questions were asked. (page 1)

We have been away before as couples and have had various conversations about going away as families, the planning took place in January 2007, this was around the time that Jane and I were moving with the girls to Exeter- 3rd January 2007.

It was Fiona and David PAYNE’S idea to go away and Jane and I were more than happy for them to do the organising as we were busy with moving house. We had all been away on Mark Warner holiday’s before, and they seemed to be a good destination. There were emails between us as a group, mainly exchanged with Matt and Dave, things weren’t so straight forward as we were all living in different parts of the country which made planning things very difficult. I am aware that David had made various requests to the Mark Warner Company and one of which was that all the apartments were to be in the same block, and preferably all to be near by to each other.

I am aware that Matt had replied to an email sent by Dave, and by mistake had included Mark Warner on the same reply I recall that it said something along the lines of ‘Go Dave Go’. Dave is quite certain about what he expects from things, and is quite aware of his consumer rights and entitlements although it seemed to be quite trivial to me at the time. We were aware from the various emails that the resort was quite spread out, and Dave strived to keep us all together. I feel that this may have been construed by Mark Warner staff as having been annoying and the staff member receiving it may have been annoyed by it, I feel that this could be looked upon badly.

We flew out from Gatwick airport having stayed the night with Matt and Rachael at their home which was near to the airport. The others flew out later the same day from East Midlands Airport.

This was the first holiday that we had been on with the MC CANN family we had been away previously with the others in the group. We had been due to go away as couples to Majorca in 2005 but Jane had found out that she was pregnant days after we had booked the holiday, as far as I am aware our places had been given to another couple I believe by the name of Tara and Stuart GOLD.

I’d describe our relationship with the couples as very good, I had met David PAYNE at Medical School in 1989 and we had stayed in Halls and Student Houses together, I met Fiona in 1993/1994 and was best-man at their wedding in 2003, we all went out to Tuscany in Italy for their Wedding. I recall that Matt and Rachael were there as were Gerry and Kate. I met Matt in my first year as a Doctor this was in around 1994, again I was close friends with him we lived in the same house, and I was best-man at their wedding in 1999. I have remained friends with Matt he moves around a lot and has worked in several places and countries.

I would say that our relationship with Kate and Gerry MC CANN is not as close as with the other two couples, I first met Gerry when he was speaking at a conference in Atlanta in 1999, and I recall that we both had interest in the same aspects of cardiology. I recall that we exchanged emails with each other to discuss various aspects of our research. Gerry moved to the Glenfield hospital and worked in the same department as I did but I was based at the Leicester Royal Infirmary, at that time Gerry was my equivalent at Glenfield and a voice at the end of the phone- I’d say this was in 2001-2002.

I’d say that we have known Kate and Gerry on a more personal level since 2002-2003 when both Kate and Jane were pregnant with Madeleine/Ella. At the beginning of their pregnancies they had been given a similar due date, although Madeleine was born about a month before (page 2) Ella. Our friendship increased through Fiona and Dave, we would often see Kate and Gerry at their house on occasions.

I recall that on one occasion Kate and Gerry visited us with Madeleine, I think that the girls must have been around 9months old as they were crawling. Other than that I don’t recall them visiting us again, I know that we have been to their house for Madeleine’s 1st and 2nd birthdays but I would say that we hadn’t spent any considerable time at the MC CANN’S home.

In relation to Kate HEALY/MC CANN I have only really met her since Madeleine was born, or through our meeting with Dave and Fiona.

Dianne WEBSTER is Fiona’s mother we obviously met her through Fiona and Dave PAYNE, we have been friends with them for some time meeting them at Fiona and Dave’s house. We have been for trips out on their boat I’d say we know Dianne quite well.

As far as I am aware there were no others due to go to Portugal, I think that Dave and Fiona had thought of asking others, but Jane and I thought that nine adults were enough. I recall that Dave and Fiona had mentioned another couple by the name of Dave and Fiona BURLING who live somewhere in Maidenhead but I am not entirely sure whether or not they were actually asked or invited. I am aware that Dianne was a late edition, but I am not sure when she was booked onto the holiday.

In relation to there being any group hierarchy I’d say that that wasn’t at all the case, Dave, Matt and I have all been close friends since Medical school and see each other as equals, I don’t know Gerry quite as well but there is no problem with him fitting into the group. I am aware that Dave and Gerry know each other very well.

The flight out to Portugal on the Saturday was early it was around 08:00am we all sat together on the flight and I recall that is where I first saw Jez WILKINS, he was sat near to Matt on the aisle. I recall that a lot of people were speaking to one and another as people do on the plane, we landed around 10:00am and waited for the baggage, on our arrival we were met by Mark Warner staff.

We were taken out of the airport and out onto the buses waiting nearby, we sat in the middle of the coach on the right hand side. I recall that Charlotte PENNINGTON who was a nanny at Mark Warner was also sat on the bus- I believe that she looked after Fiona and Dave’s kids. It was reported in the press that she had seen Kate and Gerry at the airport but I don’t see how that would have been possible as I don’t believe they had arrived by then, I believe that their flight arrived an hour or so after ours did.

Whilst we were on the bus we were given welcome packs and from what I recall we had been allocated room numbers and the packs I do not believe that it included the apartment keys (5D) but I cannot be sure. I recall that there was also a map of the area.

When we arrived we parked near to the apartment reception and we were taken to our room around lunchtime. I recall sending a text message to Gerry and Dave to say that we had arrived and also a text to a friend from Germany- who had tried to ring me, I had sent a message to tell them I was away on holiday.

I recall we all went to the pool as the kids wanted to swim, it was a windy and cold I’d say it was mid afternoon time, I remember that the PAYNE’S and MC CANN’S arrived at some point whilst we were all at the pool. We all went to the welcome meeting at the Tapas Bar on Saturday and I think that we may have gone to another one but I cannot be sure. (page 3)

I recall that they spoke about where to eat, the nannies introduced themselves and I recall that there were various people there from the sporting activities recruiting for their events/activities.

We all went to the Millennium restaurant that evening including the children it was a 10minute walk this was around 18:00-18:30hours, it was at this meal that Matt began to feel quite unwell. We didn’t stay out late so that we could put the children to bed as it had been a long and tiring day, Jane and I didn’t stay up particularly late as we all felt tired too.

The respective apartments were as follows Dave, Fiona and Dianne 5H, empty apartment 5C, Matt and Rachael 5B- which was a smaller apartment and Kate and Gerry were in 5A. I believe that the apartments were allocated to fit in with the number in each individual group- as I said previously the allocations appeared to be done prior to our arrival and may have been done following Dave’s emails to Mark Warner.

I recall seeing Jez around the Mark Warner complex we didn’t speak much I hadn’t met him prior to being on the plane, I can’t recall him being on the coach from the airport but I think that he must have been on there as he was staying at the same resort. I don’t know what apartment he was staying in at Mark Warner, but I think it was quite near us. I’d like to point out that we had had the occasional conversation on polite terms as well as seeing him at tennis.

Sunday 29th April 2007 I had booked into water-sports on the Saturday but I don’t think they operated on Sunday. I can’t recall exactly what I did on what day but I had booked to have windsurfing lessons and to do a bit of sailing. My recollection now is a little poor due to the lapse in time I got up around 08:00-08:30am we had breakfast at the Millennium restaurant, we went down to the beach, played a bit of tennis- but as I’m not a brilliant player I wasn’t all that bothered about playing tennis.

We were booked into the Tapas bar, we ate there that night initially it was booked as a one off I think by Rachael as far as I am aware the table was booked for 20:30hours. I am aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay this I believe was booked on the Monday morning as a block booking- the time was agreed by the group. Matt was unwell and I recall I went to see him, he had been suffering from a stomach upset so I can say that there were only eight adults at the Tapas bar that night.

The good thing about the Tapas bar was that it was quite near to the apartments, and the walk to the Millennium was quite far away, the Tapas bar was also used by the kids club for afternoon tea.

Kate and Gerry weren’t so flexible about meal times as their children were in more of a routine, as were Dave and Fiona, where as Jane and I are slightly more accommodating and our children have been used to staying up late on occasions. The bookings were made for the following week 20:30hours after the children were settled in bed.

In relation to the childcare routine it was a collective decision made as a group, Dave and Fiona used their two way child monitor to monitor their children. Kate and Gerry made a physical check on their children. Matt and Rachael made a physical check on Grace. Jane and I also made a physical check on Evie and Ella.

I’d like to point out that we knew that there was NOT a baby listening service, this had been picked up before our departure as there had been other inaccuracies in the brochure picked up by Dave, I believe that the brochure inaccuracies would be recorded in emails by David PAYNE. (page four)

Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.

All the meals were included in the booking as was a limited choice in drinks, if anything else was ordered there may have been a need to have made an additional payment. I recall that orders may have been put onto a bar bill and paid at the end of the week.

Sunday we left the restaurant early around 22:00hours the service was reasonable and quite quick, times didn’t vary all that much we may have had a drink at the bar before going back to the apartment but I cannot be sure.

Generally of an evening we would drink beer or have a few glasses of wine, generally three to four glasses, I can honestly say that no-one in our group was ever drunk. I’d say that generally we had five-six bottle of wine between the group of nine, it was a similar amount most nights.

Monday 30th April 2007 I recall I may have done some windsurfing this was just after I’d dropped Ella off at the kids club near the Ocean Club and Evie at crèche near to the Tapas bar. I may have done some shopping but I really can’t be certain, I recall Jane, Kate and Gerry playing tennis. We didn’t eat out at lunchtime we generally ate with Rachael and Matt and this was in our apartment or theirs, as well as at David and Fiona’s. After Madeleine disappeared we all began eating lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment.

I think in the afternoon I may have been out with Matt, I had wanted to spend time as a family but Ella wanted to go to the kids club. Monday to Wednesday I can say that the days were all very similar and it is difficult to distinguish one from each other. I know that on one of the evenings either Monday or Tuesday I stayed in the flat with Evie as she wasn’t well Jane brought my meals over to me this was mentioned in my first statement. I feel that this is more likely to have been Monday as I feel that we were all together as a group on Tuesday- nine adults. I believe that this was when the Trivia quiz had taken place.

I recall going for a sailing lesson on Tuesday and Jane went to play tennis, we collected the kids as usual around lunchtime, Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did on most days. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking. The children were in bed as usual 19:30-20:00 they appeared to be well asleep and checked that they were prior to leaving the days were generally uneventful up until Thursday 3rd May 2007.

On Wednesday Rachael was ill, we stayed out later than normal, after our meal we sat around and then moved into the bar area we stayed for around 45minutes to an hour, this was our only ‘late night’ of the holiday, I recall we had a cocktail. Checks were made as usual we would alternate completing the checks and this was done every half hour or so. I listened at (page 5) the MC CANN’S apartment and believe that this was around 23:00hours, on all occasions the children were ok. During the week I checked on some occasions and listened at others.

On the 3rd May 2007 I saw Madeleine in the morning a couple of times this was when I dropped Ella off. I took the kids up to breakfast at the Millennium club and walked to the Ocean Club I was late getting Ella there, the kids were having a great time at the kids club and all appeared to well.

I went to the flat with Evie, whilst she was resting I read a book. When she woke up we went outside to watch Jane play tennis I saw Madeleine at lunchtime I can’t recall if Jane or I collected Ella it’s all a bit hazy now.

I recall that Jane had been having a tennis lesson also there was Kate and Rachael. We were watching some children have their lesson this was before lunch. I recall that one of the guests a guy from Southampton came over his daughter was playing tennis, he wanted to take a picture but expressed to us how uncomfortable he felt in doing so- he said something similar to feeling like a pervert or a dirty old man when taking a picture of his own child, I do not wish to implicate him. I recall that the child was of a similar age to Madeleine and Ella.

I recall that Madeleine and Ella had had a similar lesson the day before.

We agreed that in this day and age taking a photograph of your own child you shouldn’t be made to feel uncomfortable, it was a horrible coincident. I would like to stress that I do not think that this man had any involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance. I feel that it was a haunting coincidence.

Ella went back to the kids club and I went out with Matt sailing, I Jane was looking after Evie. Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children, I recall that at some point around 17:00-17:30 Kate was out running she was dressed in her full running kit which was a vest and shorts- one item was grey and the other pale blue but I cannot say which way round.

When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group.

We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.

It was a warm day, good afternoon I recall that I went up to the social tennis around 18:00hours with Matt I think David went to the apartment and then up to Gerry’s. I played tennis for around an hour to an hour and a half, Dan the tennis coach was also present, as were some other male guests and Gerry we played a mixture of singles and doubles.

The kids came up with Jane, Fiona and Rachael from the beach, but not the MC CANN’S children I presume that they were at the apartment. They stayed for a short while before going back to the apartment to be bathed and put to bed. I got back to the flat around 20:00hours as we were running late we had to take the rackets back with us. The children were in bed Jane went down to the restaurant around 20:30-20:40hours I remained in the flat for another ten minutes or so waiting for them to settle down. I went down to the Tapas bar the adults of 5H were running late as usual, David and Fiona are always late and it is a standing joke in our group. Around 21:00hours Matt was going over to check on Grace so he said he would chase (page 6) the Payne’s up as we were all waiting to order and we were conscious that the waiting staff wanted us to place our orders. I believe that he listened at the windows on his way to find the PAYNES having gone to check on Grace.

The evening was the same as evenings before Kate and Gerry were behaving entirely normally.

Following Madeleine’s disappearance and subsequent search we had made a time line together this will show what time Gerry left the table. I don’t recall at what point but it was around 21:05 Gerry left the table was only away for a little while, Jane also went to check the children and was gone for a minute or so. The children were ok she didn’t mention anything unusual. After we had eaten the starters I needed to go to the toilet so Matt and I decided we would go and check on the children. We walked together I recall that the light was fading I went straight to 5D I could hear Evie was murmuring. I went into the apartment and Matt went into his. I went to the toilet to urinate and then started to clean up Evie and change her, Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help. It was getting darker by this time. I said to go back and tell Jane that Evie was unwell.

I sat in the lounge and read to Evie Jane came back having eaten her meal. We stayed together in the apartment for around 5minutes. I went across to the Tapas restaurant this would have been around 21:45hours, Jane remained with Evie. The group joked about Jane having been to relieve me they were all in good humour. Kate left the table there was nothing significant about her leaving but I think it was a similar time to my meal arriving. I think that this would have been around 22:00hours, I didn’t have a watch or phone to check the time but Rachael did ask for the time and 22:00hours was mentioned. I know that she didn’t leave straight after me arriving back as the waiters had agreed to cook me a fresh meal.

Kate returned through the reception area standing at the end of the path near the stones, and yelled over towards our table in the Tapas bar I cannot recall exactly what she yelled but it was along the lines of Maddy is missing. We all got up immediately except Dianne who remained at the table. I am fairly sure on the time, I have put a great deal of thought who may have been watching us during the week, but all appeared quite normal to us, the people who would have known our routine would have been the waiters. I can’t recall any other people dining in the restaurant at the time, there would have been people in there but as we ate quite left they would have left during our meal.

We went over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment I didn’t go in to the apartment. I can recall it would have been a similar layout to ours, although the furniture and décor was different to ours as the apartments are leased. I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion, but I’d imagine that there are wardrobes in there as there are in ours. When I had been into the apartment on previous occasions it had been dark.

During the interview I drew a seating plan of the Tapas bar and who was sitting where which I have previously marked and produced as my exhibit.

On the evening I was wearing brown jeans/cord style trousers, a pale blue stripe top, and Jane had taken my jumper which was blue. The nights were quite chilly which is why Jane had my jumper I am quite use to the cold.

I wish to reiterate that I joined the group at the Tapas bar 20:45 I went down to the table alone, everyone was there except the PAYNE’S and Dianne. (page seven)

When I went to check the children I went to my flat first then Matt walked on to his flat 5B, I believe that he was gone for around 60-90seconds. Then he checked on the MC CANN’S children having left my apartment. This was the final check before Madeleine was noticed missing, nothing appeared to be unusual and there was nothing that suggested we were being watched.

When Kate raised the alarm she didn’t get to the table as the area was all enclosed, she was at the start of the path she shouted across to us. We ran out through the reception we were all in a panic some people went into the flat I stayed outside, I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts.

On my way back I bumped into Dave he said to me this is bad this is really bad they’ve not found her. We searched down to the beach I searched the East side, and Matt and Dave the West side. We went back to 5A it was clear that panic was setting in Gerry was on the phone to a family member back home, for someone that is such a strong character he is usually so calm, decisive, confident. He was lying on the floor in hysterics, he had a high voice crying like a baby, I didn’t know what to say.

By this time we had been joined by Ocean Club staff I am aware that Fiona and Rachael had spoken to Jane.

Jane has been made to feel frustrated, like she is a sympathetic witness, a fantasist and a liar. She feels that the P.J do not believe her.

I went to Jane she was with Rachael I hugged her she said “I knew there was something odd, I knew it was strange”. “I watched someone carrying a child”. She played it down Jane’s character is to be calm, composed but she wasn’t herself at this time. She was adamant that she had seen the man, and that the child could have been Madeleine. She feels there is a good chance she witnessed the abduction.

I know that Kate and Gerry were NOT involved at all, I saw Jane she was shaking she had a terrible realisation the she may have seen Madeleine being taken away. We have been crying out for these interviews I have never seen Jane like this before.

We have coped- somehow we have been keen to be there to put across our feelings, we have struggled in silence, what Jane saw was suspicious she is NOT a liar, a fantasist we as a group have nothing to gain by giving false evidence or creating false leads.

I was asked who I spoke to' People in the bar at the shopping centre. Older groups of Portuguese people near the front, and a female possibly member of staff from Mark Warner.

We tried to find a picture of Madeleine Kate checked her camera but these were mainly of her at home or not such a clear picture. We found a picture of Madeleine but we couldn’t print it off. Cat or one of the nannies said that they had a printer and took the camera away to get some photos copied. A copy of the photo was given directly to the Police, someone from the Mark Warner staff made a poster- but I do not know who that was. (page eight)

I am not sure who informed the authorities or media of Madeleine’s disappearance but Gerry may have informed the authorities along with Matt. As for the media I think Rachael called a friend who works at the BBC.

I loathe the media even more so now, I have a very low opinion of them Dave was also seen keen to make use of the media and think that he may have constructed an email- but I am not sure whether that was actually sent. I know that there were attempts to contact the British Consulate.

Searches- I searched mainly on my own, although we were all close by to each other. The searches weren’t really planned no plans were drawn up and there wasn’t really any particular structure. There may have been places that we missed, it was hap-hazard and panicked. It wasn’t well organised.

Leave doors/windows open- We didn’t leave doors/windows open. We did sit outside on Saturday along with other days on the patio, we wouldn’t have left it open once away.

Checks on children- Checks made on children, we had the routine already outlined in this statement.

How often- four-five checks per evening. Kate and Gerry checked by the clock, where as Jane and I checked between courses, I don’t have any recollection of the MC CANN’S children crying had I have heard them crying I would have checked on them.

Confirmed his mobile phone number.

Number ending 678- belongs to Susan HEALY mother of Kate MC CANN, believes that the call recorded was made by Fiona Payne who had borrowed his phone due to her battery being flat.

Number ending 842- belongs to Brian HEALY again cannot account for call doesn’t believe that he made or received it and may have leant the phone to Fiona.

Number ending 801- his mother text message asking how holiday was going and checking on their welfare.

Landline number- his parents home spoke to parents again to check on welfare as distressed and upset by Madeleine’s disappearance.

Number ending 603- Anthony NICHOLLS colleague, call made wanted to make him aware that he would be away for a longer period, but as he was also away conversation cut short, and called another colleague.

I wish to clarify that I have only met Susan and Brian HEALY previously at Madeleine’s birthday parties. I then met them after they flew in following Madeleine’s disappearance.

Clarified light beginning to fade, when Jane left the table reasonable amount of light, aware that there were street lamps in the area. Route back from table- shutters didn’t look at them, but would have noticed if there was anything suspicious or untoward- felt that it was a loaded question. Inner route would take less than minute and outer route just over a minute.

Clarified who made the time line handed to Portuguese officers- I had written it- both copies, in consultation with Dave and Gerry. It was written 02:00-03:00hours in Gerry’s room. It was my idea a form of gathering information and putting things in order. This was after the searches which were again conducted around 01:00-02:00hours. (page nine)

Shown a typed time line typed on a lap top borrowed from female tennis coach Georgina, seven adults there when time line drawn up, then shown to the MC CANN’S afterwards for them to make any alterations or additions. Was written after the first weekend after Madeleine’s disappearance this was following David PAYNE’S suggestion. It was checked against initial draft, it was a group recollection and with the groups agreement. The document was typed on the laptop USB flash disk which was handed to the PJ when I went to complete my statement.

Clarified who Dan was- Tennis coach from Mark Warner, saw him in car when conducting the search- he was in a car, and had other occupants but cannot say who. He went on to search area which was in darkness.

Comments- I am troubled by MURAT’S denial of being there on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance and assisting in the translations. This has troubled me he would have an alibi had he have been honest about being there. The statement given in Portugal are true and accurate, other people put MURAT there on the night one of those being Sylvia head of house keeping. I would like to point out that I do not wish to change the statement given to the PJ but have reservations that the time may have been inaccurate and it may have been the following morning when I saw him.

Our statements have been previously given in good faith I am positive that he was there on the night. What I said in my statement was right.

To attend for re-enactment, no great willingness to attend suspecting Kate and Gerry or the group is very very wrong. How do we all move on we have been unable to defend ourselves in the press, we have been threatened, the press just magnify things, our professional status has been threatened I have had the press ringing my ward, Spanish reporters running around the hospital. It is unbearable. There are various websites set up about us all we have been reported, on our lives are no longer our own. It appears to us that the PJ are trying to nail someone in the group or Kate and Gerry for this, to us they are now doing too little too late. This all should have been done in the first 10-14days.

At least now there is a genuine attempt to further their investigation, we have had so much adverse publicity, we are not hiding anything. We would only really be willing to attend now if Kate and Gerry’s Arguidos status was relinquished, and the media be shown that they are NOT to blame for this, none of us are.

This now needs to be managed in a way that is mutually agreeable to both sides now, we don’t trust the environment we don’t feel that we would be safe going over there. We are willing to help with the investigation, Jane is not willing to go back and I don’t think that we would be able to cope with it. Jane is calm and composed and able to deal with things, but how is she expected to cope with all the slating in the media.

I cannot stress enough that we as a group have not been involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, we have only ever tried to help the PJ and investigating officers with the investigation into her disappearance. If we are to be expected to return to Portugal for this re-enactment then we will need certain assurances.

I wish to add that this statement may appear at time to be disjointed but these are my responses to questions posed by Leicestershire Constabulary Officers on behalf of the PJ and the MCCANN family.

This statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Signed: RUSSELL OBRIEN Signature witnessed by: K HOLLIDAY 4064

Edited version - I have removed the "erms" and "you knows" unless they were the answer to a question.

00.00.11 1578 “Right. The time is eight fifty-nine am and that is on Thursday the tenth of April two thousand and eight. We are in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I am Detective Constable, one, five, seven, eight, Andrew GIERC from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you kindly give me your full name and date of birth please?”
Reply “Yeah, it’s Russell James O'BRIEN, twenty-six, eleven, seventy”.
1578 “Thank you very much. As you know Russell this is your second visit to Force Headquarters this week. You are here voluntarily as a significant witness to assist with the Portuguese Authorities in the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN, which occurred on the evening of Thursday the third of May two thousand and seven in Portugal. You have given previous interviews with us on, it was Tuesday the eighth, wasn’t it, two days ago?”
Reply “Umm”.
1578 “And from those interviews we have compiled a statement in respect of the content of those interviews. And what I would like you to do now is, I will present you with the statement and I will invite you to read through it and we can alter, amend, add, take out anything you need”.
Reply “Okay, okay”.
00.01.33 1578 “So it is really to your satisfaction”.
Reply “Alright”.
1578 “It will be your statement”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1578 “So if, it is quite lengthy, there are about nine or ten pages”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “And we can, as we go through we can take note of any modifications or alterations required”.
Reply “Right, okay. Do you want me to read this out loud or just to?”
1578 “You can do if you wish it is entirely up to you”.
Reply “(O'BRIEN read through the statement). The first page, is, fine. I suppose the only addition was that, was an explanation of why I, why I would look Jane’s statement. And that was because there was a reference in my original statement for a period of time that was not covered in my interview. That would be the only thing that I would have”.
1578 “So that is an addition?”
Reply “It says, ‘I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made from Jane TANNER’, she is not actually legally my wife we are just, we are just partners, , ‘and I’ve been allowed to see the documents’. I asked to see her document because my original statement to the PJ, made reference, I think for the Monday to the Wednesday especially, to Jane’s and it was not written in any detail in mine. Does that make sense?”
1578 “I think so”.
Reply “Yeah, so I just, I just, the clarification for why I’m seeing Jane’s statement was that the three days of, of the holiday were really a reference to her statement in my statement. But, apart from that, the rest of page one is fine. I can confirm we moved down to Exeter on the third of January, I can’t be more specific at the bottom, but. In the second paragraph, at the start, ‘I am aware that Matt’, I suppose I’d just have it clarified that, it says that, ‘Dave is quite certain of what he expects of things and quite aware of his consumer rights, et cetera’. I think it would just be worthwhile, that the reason I brought that up was I’d imagine that the people at MARK WARNER may have probably in London or their Head Office, would have thought that, that, that, that this was a, rather annoying email, in the fact that they had been copied back in on Matt’s reply, it may have just irritated a few people at, at their office. There’s a, an error in the paragraph that says ‘This was the first holiday that we have been on with the McCANN family’, that’s true. It said ‘We had been due to go away as couples to Greece in two thousand and six’, Matt and Rachael, Dave and Fiona and myself and Jane did go to Greece in two thousand and six, it was actually, we were due to go away with the McCANNs in the Autumn of two thousand and five to Majorca but pulled out because Jane as heavily pregnant with, was heavily pregnant with E***”.
00.06.54 1578 “’This was the first holiday we’d been on with the McCANN family’?”
Reply “Yeah, that, that’s true, but it’s the next statement that’s wrong”.
1578 “’We were due to go away was couples’?”
Reply “We did go away as couples to Greece but the McCANNs weren’t with us, it was with the rest of the group, the other three couples”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Jane was heavily pregnant for a holiday in September two thousand and five to Majorca, where Dave and Fi did go away with the McCANNs and also with T*** and, actually, I think it’s S***** G*** rather than Andrew G***”.
1578 “T*** and S***** G***?”
Reply “It’s S***** G***, I think actually I said Andrew, it’s actually S****”.
Reply “And the rest, like I said, is fine. And the rest of the second page is, is, is fine”.
00.08.58 1578 “Okay, it is down to?”
Reply “Yeah, the paragraph ending ‘In relation to (inaudible). And the rest of that page seems, seems fine. Page three”.
1578 “This is where we go out of synch a little, I’m afraid, there was an error in printing”.
Reply “Alright, so it starts, at my page three it says ‘Dianne WEBSTER’?”
1578 “Yes, I’ve got that”.
Reply “Have you got that?”
1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “The first three paragraphs are fine. I think, I suppose, the only comment is, when I’m talking about Charlotte PENNINGTON in the fifth paragraph, I said that she, ‘I believe she looked after Dave and Fiona’s kids’, then, then there’s a separate, a sort of a separate sentence there. And it might be worth clarifying that, at least in popular Press, she she, there was a report that she said she saw Kate and Gerry at the Airport, but I think she’s, and I don’t think that would have been possible, because we had left the Airport on the coach with her, so I think she’s probably confusing that with, with one of us. So that’s, that’s only a report from the popular Press rather than anything that she said”.
1578 “So how do you wish us to word that?”
Reply “I suppose, ‘I believe she looked after Fiona and Dave’s kids’, full stop, ‘In the media at least she has reported seeing Kate and Gerry at FARO Airport on our arrival, but I don’t think, I think she’s mistaken because they had not arrived by then’”. I mean, it, it is potentially, theoretically possible that she was nipping in and out of the bus, but I don’t think she would have, they were, they were a good hour landing after us and we weren’t extensively delayed at the Airport, from my recollection, it seem, probably less like”.
1578 “So they arrived some time after you?”
00.12.08 Reply “Yeah, I think they, they were, they were landing about a full hour after us, but I think by the time we’d got luggage out and we were on the coach, they were actually coming by taxi anyway, so I don’t think they would have been expecting to meet anyone from MARK WARNER, because they’d made their own, because they’d changed the flight, they’d made their own independent means of getting from the airport to PRAIA DA LUZ. Erm, so, I mean, that’s, she’s probably wrong there. Yeah, ‘I think the apartment keys weren’t’, but I think it’s the other way round really, I think, I think we were just given our, we were allocated numbers and I don’t think the packs had the keys in, but I can’t be sure, so it’s, it’s the same sort of thing, I’m not sure, but, it’s the other way round”.
1578 “’We had been allocated room numbers and the packs may have included the apartment keys but I cannot be sure’?”
Reply “I think they didn’t, they may have, yeah, I suppose, it’s just, I don’t think we did get the keys, but, or the other way round. I, I don’t suppose that’s terribly important. I’m not, I can’t quite say, but certainly, in terms of that text message from a friend from Germany, I’ve only got a fairly dim recollection of it, it wouldn’t have been ringing me in relation to work, I mean, she was in Leicester as a student in our University Department about, nearly eight years ago, so there wouldn’t be any relation to work now, so it would have just been, maybe just delete in relation to work, because I think she’d either texted me or called me at some point. I just want to clarify the, the third from bottom paragraph, on my copy that says ‘I recall that they spoke about where to eat’, it’s just, we were actually at the Tapas here, it says ‘I recall this was to be – at the Millennium Restaurant’. I don’t, I think that could be just deleted, I mean, we had, we had to eat at the Millennium Restaurant that night because the Tapas was not open on the, the day of arrivals I think, but that implies that we were at the Millennium Restaurant at the time a little bit, so I would perhaps just delete ‘at the Millennium Restaurant’. They told, they went, they went through the eating arrangements and they introduced themselves and there were people recruiting for activities, but we were actually at the Tapas at the time”.
00.15.28 1578 “So take out ‘at the Millennium’?”
Reply “I think just delete ‘at the Millennium Restaurant’, it just implies that we were in a different position there. There’s an error in the next paragraph, ‘We all went to the Millennium Restaurant that evening, it was a ten minute walk, this was around half six to seven’, probably, I don’t know whether we discussed the times, it was probably, maybe six to six thirty for a start. And it says ‘Everyone expect Matt was there because he was feeling unwell’, that’s wrong, Matt actually did come with us but he started to feel quite unwell when we got there and just sort of sat looking fairly green and unhappy during the meal, so he did come with us”.
1578 “So we amend the time?”
Reply “I think it was probably a bit earlier than that”.
1578 “Eighteen hundred”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “To eighteen thirty”.
Reply “I don’t think it was, particularly late”.
1578 “And Matt was present?”
Reply “Yeah, but was just,”.
1578 “But feeling unwell?”
Reply “Yes, and then it just rather jumps, the next paragraph, ‘The children were all in bed’ and that the children came, the children were with us on this occasion, yeah, they came up to the Millennium, it was, every single person went up, because we were all in there. I think, maybe the clarity is, after we returned from the Millennium Restaurant I think everyone just put their respective children to bed and called it”.
1578 “This implies that the children were not with you at the Millennium?”
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “Which in fact they were?”
00.17.06 Reply “No, every, we all went up and then we came back, well I think, when, if we had the video, what, what went on and we talked about there, is that we return, after we returned from the Millennium Restaurant we didn’t really do much else, I think we just got our respective children to bed and then, and then probably went too, or not that much longer afterwards. The rest of that page is fine. A little bit sort of out of, out of, synch really about Jez, I mean, it’s talking, it’s going back to the coach and not saying much on the plane. I think, I certainly don’t think I recall, I, I, we did see Jez around the MARK WARNER complex, we were on, hello terms, I don’t know how, we were on kind of greeting terms, we had the, the odd, the odd conversation here and there during the week, he played I think a lot more tennis, so he knew, he had more, a lot more time with Gerry than with me, and it says ‘I hadn’t met him prior to being on’, oh yes I have, ‘We didn’t speak much’”.
1578 “’I hadn’t met him prior to being on the plane’?”
Reply “Yeah, I did meet him on the plane, yeah”.
1578 “That is correct, isn’t it?”
Reply “Yeah, it’s just jumping around a bit, isn’t it really”.
1578 “’I can’t recall him being on the coach from the Airport but I think that he must have been on there as he was staying on the same resort’?”
Reply “Yeah, I think it’s just to say that”.
1578 “So if we add there that you saw him”.
Reply “It’s just like all three sentences are all kind of ploughing into one there. ‘I recall seeing Jez around the MARK WARNER complex and was on’, I don’t know, ‘polite terms with him’, we’d sort of say hello and not, we’ve had a couple of conversations probably, but not much more than that. and then, we didn’t speak much, ‘I hadn’t met him prior to being on the plane’, full stop. ‘I can’t recall him being on the coach’, but, he almost certainly was because he was staying on the same resort, that’s fine. And I don’t, ‘I don’t know whereabouts he was staying but I think it was fairly near to where we were’”.
00.19.42 1578 “Fairly near to where you were?”
Reply “Yeah, I think it was in, either the apartment blocks near us or there was some just over the other side of the road, as we discussed on Tuesday, MARK WARNER didn’t own every, every apartment in every block, they had a, sort of a splattering of apartments across the Ocean Club. It says ‘Sunday the twenty-ninth of April’, I think it’s worth just saying, on that it currently runs, I think it’s actually running straight into the Monday thereafter, we, I think I booked into Water Sports on the Saturday at this meeting at the Tapas, I think that’s where you made your bookings, it possibly may have been on the Sunday, I’m not entirely sure there, but”.
1578 “So the booking for Water Sports?”
Reply “May have been on the Saturday at the Tapas, it could have possibly been on, at a separate meeting on the Sunday, I’m not entirely sure whether there was one, one introductory meeting where everything happened including some of your bookings for what you wanted to do or whether there was a separate one on the Sunday. But, just the way, the way this reads it implies that I had wind surfing lessons that day, but actually, there was no water, I don’t think there was anything in terms, in terms of lessons down at the waterfront until the Monday”.
1578 “’I can’t recall exactly what I did on that day’ it should read, shouldn’t it?”
Reply “On that day, yeah. But ‘I’d agreed to have wind surfing lessons and do a bit of sailing’ shall we say ‘Monday through Thursday’, we add ‘Monday through Thursday’, because we certainly didn’t do that, I think the Sunday was sort of a, a relative day off for, for the staff, well certainly with the, for the staff at the beach I think. I think the rest of it’s fine. I don’t, I really can’t recall an awful lot about the Sunday, I think we probably just had a bit of a look round, a trip to the beach. I’ve got a vague idea I, that you may have been able to still hire the kayaks, so I think I might have had a go on one of them, but I suppose that’s not terribly, terribly relevant. It says on the next paragraph ‘I’m aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay’, that’s correct, but I think it’s worth pointing out that that booking was probably made on the Monday. So we made one-off booking to eat at the Tapas on the Sunday, as I say, I think that was Rachael. But I might be confusing it with the, the next day, where there were only a certain number of us around and I think Rachael made, asked, was asking if there was a block booking and I can certainly remember being stood, around, there was a number of the group, with her at the time, but I think it was Rachael that asked”.
00.22.48 1578 “So Rachael asked for the block booking on the Monday?”
Reply “After we’d eaten there once. We must, we, we didn’t know what it was like and I think we ate there and, enjoyed it and thought it was, it was going to be convenient, for, for, for us and for the children and so the block booking would have been the next morning. So, yeah, Matt was unwell on the Sunday. Yeah, there was only eight of us there. It doesn’t quite make sense here. It says ‘In relation to the child care issues it was a collective decision made as a group’, fine. ‘Dave and Fiona used their two-way child monitor’, ‘alone to monitor their children’ because they”.
1578 “’Dave and Fiona used their two-way child monitor to monitor their children’?”
Reply “Yeah, and that, that’s what they used because they had this, they could, they could listen in and talk to, in their room as well, so they didn’t. And then it says, and it doesn’t make sense, it just says ‘Kate and Gerry to check their children’, there’s a verb missing there”.
1578 “Really it should be a full-stop after ‘their children’, shouldn’t it?”
Reply “A full-stop, yeah. Yeah, full-stop, yeah. And then ‘Kate and Gerry’, I’d say, ‘physically’, ‘physically went’, yeah, ‘physically checked’”.
1578 “’Kate and Gerry had to physically check their children’?”
Reply “A physically check, ‘physically check their children’, ‘as did Matt and Rachael to check G***e and Jane and myself to check E*** and E***’. I’m not sure that we were ever, I don’t think we were led to believe that there was a Baby Listening Service, I think”.
00.25.06 1578 “Right, just bear with me a minute”.
Reply “Sorry”.
1578 “’We were led to believe that there was a Baby Listening Service but this wasn’t the case’?”
Reply “I don’t think we were led to believe, I think we, we, knew that there wasn’t a Baby Listening Service, I don’t think we were led to believe that there was. There were certain things in the brochure about the resort that were incorrect and that formed part of Dave’s emails, but they were largely about other things, like hire and,”.
1578 “’The brochure was incorrect’?”
Reply “In, in, in other ways, but I don’t think it was about, it wasn’t about”.
1578 “Was incorrect in relation to the Baby Listening Service?”
Reply “No, I don’t think, I don’t, I don’t remember it was, I think,”.
1578 “’The brochure was incorrect in other aspects’?”
Reply “Yeah, fairly trivial, just about I think”.
1578 “’And these formed part of’?”
Reply “Of Dave’s correspondence with MARK WARNER. I think it was, there were a few things that I, because it was a new resort I think things had, were, were in a state of flux for MARK WARNER on what, on what was said in the brochure and what was actually there and things were changing and some things that we were promised didn’t happen, some things that, that were. A lot in the brochure were actually there and, I don’t, it wasn’t that there wasn’t a Baby Listening Service, I don’t think, but, I think, I think for the next paragraph, ‘Kate and Gerry would check’, it says ‘Initially we would only check our own room’, I think actually it was, it was more, it was more fluid than that, I think early on, for instance”.
00.27.20 1578 “Sorry, whereabouts are we?”
Reply “’I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms, on occasions we may have listened at other apartments and doors and windows’, I think actually, generally speaking, what we would do is, we would often listen at other, often listened at the windows of the other apartments and routinely go into our own. But it wasn’t a question of initially we’d only check our own rooms, I think actually earlier on, and certainly from my point of view, I actually went into Kate and Gerry’s room, on the Sunday and Matt’s room on the Sunday, we, at the start we were going to each and every room, but I think then, because there was a bit of, it was actually more that we would listen at the windows and go into our own room, because there was, , everyone was going up and down in a cycle, in the circuit, so”.
1578 “So ‘We may have listened at other’?”
Reply “Listened and, and early on actually checked, yeah, early on we”.
1578 “’Listened at other apartment doors or windows’?”
Reply “I think that happened, that happened quite a lot, we would often do that”.
1578 “So you are happy with ‘the doors or the windows’?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘listened at the doors and windows’”.
1578 “’And also’?”
Reply “’And checked on our own rooms and’, ‘on some visits other people’s apartments’. But I don’t think it was like, I don’t, it’s the word ‘initial’ ‘Initially we’d only check on our rooms’, I don’t think that was necessarily true, I think we would be listening at the window just to make sure no-one was awake”.
1578 “So we could take out that ‘initial’ then?”
Reply “You can just say, yeah”.
1578 “’I’m aware we’?”
00.28.50 Reply “Well, ‘I’m aware that we checked our own rooms and also listened at other apartment doors and windows’ and then ‘maybe on occasion, on some occasions we actually entered the other rooms as well’. The next paragraph, I don’t think I was quite so specific about, , ‘Other people’s apartments were on deadlock’, but I think when I, well, so that’s wrong. ‘On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s’, that’s true. I’m not sure about taking their keys, I think I, I think I definitely took Matt and Rachael’s keys, but I entered Gerry’s flat through the patio door”.
1578 “Okay. So, ‘I had taken their keys and recall the door was deadlocked, I needed to turn the key two times, the shutters were down’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, I don’t think, I don’t think,”.
1578 “’I recall that Gerry and Kate’s I had to get (inaudible)’”.
Reply “That, that, that is me talking about our arrangements in our flat, so it’s kind of all fused into one there. So maybe just to clarify that, it would be easier to say ‘In our flat we closed the patio door, shut and locked’, ‘shut the blinds, the shutters down and locked the internal window, double locked the front door after we went out and the patio door was also locked, was closed and locked’. So that was, that was our arrangements inside our flat. And then on Sunday ‘I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s and my recollection is that I needed Matt’s key to check on their room and I had it, but I didn’t need Kate and Gerry’s key because they went through the patio door’, we went through the patio door to cross in and look into the children’s bedroom. So, at the time, I have to say, I didn’t really think that, about the differences in how, in how we were, the security in the, in the rooms was, but, I definitely did not go in through Gerry’s and Kate’s main, double locked door or anything, I’m sure I went through the patio, so I think they were doing things differently from Matt and Rachael, at least from the ground floor perspective, right from the word go”.
1578 “Okay”.
00.31.51 Reply “But, yes, the business about ‘The door was deadlocked and I recall I needed to turn it two times’, actually that is not recalling anything, that’s just describing how, how we, left, left five ‘D’ when we went to, went to dinner, closed the patio door, deadlocked the main door, put the shutters down and”.
1578 “Sorry, whereabouts are you now?”
Reply “I’m just clarifying what I’ve already said there. As I say, that this is sort of two different, threads of the same conversation here. One conversation is, what did, what did we do in our flat, and that is the shutters were down on all the windows, the internal windows behind the shutters were shut and locked, and the patio door was, was locked from the inside and, and then we went out through the main door into the car park and double locked the door. We were conscious that, if you, you only do one lock on the main door then it can be opened from the inside but if you double lock it then, then, then you need the key to get in or out”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “And then the second point is, what did I do on Sunday, and on Sunday, on one of the visits at least, I went back to five ‘D’ and checked on our children, but I also went to five ‘D’ on Matt’s and I, I’m pretty sure that I needed Matt’s key to do that, so I think they were doing the same as us. But when, for Kate and Gerry, I just went in through the patio steps and, and just across to the room. It says ‘I recall that their front door was accessed from the car park but immediate access to their apartment was gained from the pool side’, and I think that’s, I mean, that was correct on, on, on that particular night and that particular visit, it’s whether that was what they were doing every night, I’m not sure, but I think, they generally were going in through, through the, through the patio door”.
1578 “So if we put ‘generally’ in between ‘but’ and ‘immediate’, ‘But generally immediate access to the apartment w as gained from the pool side’?”
Reply “The pool side, yes, to their apartment, yeah. The rest of that page, as far as, ‘Back to the apartment but I can’t be sure’, is fine. So on Monday the thirtieth of April now, I think that can, (inaudible) Jane’s, not very important, but, I think it’s not ‘Wind surfing or sailing’, I think it was wind surfing, so ‘or sailing’ can be deleted”.
00.35.43 1578 “’I recall I may have done some wind surfing or sailing’?”
Reply “Yeah, just delete ‘or sailing’ on Monday, it was wind surfing. ‘I dropped E*** off at the crèche’, she was always quite happy to go, it wasn’t that she didn’t like going, actually it was E*** that, E*** was a little bit more, reticent about going, so there’s two, there’s two things here. What I would say here is ‘I dropped E*** off at the crèche’, ‘and E*** was also left at the crèche although wasn’t quite so keen on it as E*** initially’. So it was E*** that wasn’t as keen on it”.
1578 “’E*** also dropped off’?”
Reply “’Also dropped off’, they were obviously at separate places. And the point about, at the end of the holiday, was that our intention was not put E*** or E*** into the crèche on every session because obviously I sort of don’t see them as much as Jane does and I, I mean, there were a couple of sessions we didn’t, we didn’t put them in, so I just, had some time with them over, over the week. But, as time went on, although this clearly also, goes into the couple of weeks, E*** loved it so much, she was saying, ‘I just want to go’, ‘I want to go to club’. So, although we weren’t intending to put E**a in all the time, in the end she went most, well she did go most morning and afternoon sessions because she was so keen on it and had such a great time there”.
1578 “So ‘E*** went to’?”
Reply “’E*** went to Kids Club’”.
1578 “’Kids Club’?”
Reply “The plan was for her not necessarily to go to all sessions”.
1578 “And the Kids Club was the reception, wasn’t it?”
00.37.27 Reply “That was down at the, yeah, the Ocean Club. E*** was in the, the crèche, but immediately behind the Tapas. But the plan, our plan at least, Jane and mine, was that we would put them into a certain number of sessions just allow us some free time to, to, to do a few other things, but that I would probably spend some time with them not in clubs. But E***, E*** absolutely loved it and after a couple of sessions E***, E*** was pretty happy there too”.
1578 “So ‘I dropped E*** off at the Kids Club’?”
Reply “Yeah, that’s probably more, not crèche”.
1578 “’And E*** reception’?”
Reply “’E*** the crèche’”.
1578 “Sorry, ‘at the crèche’”.
Reply “E***nt to the crèche”.
1578 “Initially?”
Reply “Initially E***ell, I mean, and by initially, like a lot of nursery, when you leave people at nursery, I mean, for the first five minutes, E***sn’t very happy, but, no, she been at pre, had been going to pre-school and had gone to nursery actually for a lot longer than E*** over the years, so she just sort of got on with it, just went in and got on with it”.
1578 “So the statement there that ‘Initially she didn’t like going but by the end of the holiday she was asking to go’?”
Reply “That’s, that’s”.
1578 “That is correct in respect of E***
Reply “No, no. No, no, no, I mean, E***s only one so she wouldn’t be asking to go anyway”.
1578 “Sorry”.
00.38.41 Reply “Sorry, the clarification here is, that we weren’t going to book them in for every session, initially we dropped of E***he just got on with it, absolutely happy from the word go. Erm, E***en we dropped off, would have a bit, a few tears like a lot of young kids do when you leave them at nursery, but there were no reports of her not having a good time and she was happy, once she had been dropped off. The comment about wanting to go more was actually as the week wore on, although I’m talking really now, we were there for an extra two weeks and we used the facilities of MARK WARNER, so E***s enjoying the Kids Club so much that she usually requested to go rather than, rather than us kind of saying, ‘Do you want to go’. So E***end up, going to probably more sessions because she just got so much out of it and came back, so animated. And they were very good with them, they took them out, they changed, every half hour they’d do something different, they’d do something inside or they’d go to the beach or they’d go sailing or they’d go and play tennis, a really, really exciting day for E***d she would come back absolutely knackered. So I think that, that’s just for clarification. Yeah, I think, where it says ‘We generally ate with Rachael and Matt’, ‘and this was in our apartment or theirs’, I think it could be worth saying there ‘We also ate in’, ‘Fiona and Dave’s flat’ full-stop. ‘And then after Madeleine disappeared we all began eating in Dave and Fiona’s’, well ‘We all began eating lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment very, very, very regularly’, that became the focus for us all. So just the addition of, ‘and sometimes at Fiona and’”.
1578 “’We didn’t eat out at lunchtime we generally ate with Rachael and Matt’?”
Reply “’And this was in our apartment or theirs or also Fiona and Dave’s’, that’s probably the easiest way of just adding it without changing the whole thing. So there was a, there was a sort of a circuit of lunches where all the kids would get together and after Madeleine disappeared we generally ate lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment”.
1578 “So we include ‘or theirs/Dave and Fiona’?”
Reply “Dave and Fi as well, yeah. And then the next bit is fair enough, which is fair enough there that ‘After Madeleine disappeared we began eating’ maybe just ‘lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment regularly’. At the end, the next paragraph is fair, it’s fair enough I think, I think that’s fine. An addition at the end maybe just saying, regarding the Monday and Tuesday, I think it was Monday night because, I have this recollection that on Tuesday it was the first night we’d all been together, the nine of us, actually, present”.
00.42.23 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “However Jane actually thinks that it was, Tuesday, it was probably Tuesday night, so we’re, we’re not entirely sure. I don’t know if that’s going to be very relevant, but I thought it was Monday and Jane thinks it might have been Tuesday”.
1578 “You say ‘Either Monday or Tuesday’?”
Reply “Yeah, so as long as, well”.
1578 “You could cross-out ‘either’ and put in ‘possibly’. ‘Possibly Monday’ and cross-out ‘or Tuesday’?”
Reply “I don’t know, maybe I’m just being fussy. I mean, it was either Monday or Tuesday, me and Jane can’t quite agree on that one, we thought. Just leave it as it is”.
1578 “If we leave it as it is. We do say ‘Either Monday or Tuesday’, don’t we?”
Reply “Yeah. I think rather than, at one point I know, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie did eat lunch in, in Dave and Fi’s apartment, so rather than ‘each day’ it might be worth just saying ‘most days’. I think they, they generally, had their lunch separate, I think. So it says ‘Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did each day’, but there was certainly an occasion on one of them, sort of a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, that they, that they ate up in we were all, all the kids were together at one point, it was a bit of a squeeze with everyone in there”.
1578 “So do you want to?”
00.43.43 Reply “Just change it to ‘most days’ and then at least it, because it certainly wasn’t sort of every day. It says ‘I want out’, I think it should probably say ‘I went out’. I think the conversation we were having there is actually I think me and Matt”.
1578 “It should be ‘went’, shouldn’t it?”
Reply “It should be ‘Went out in the afternoon to the beach’. And I think this is, what we were saying at this point is, I think me and Matt actually went kayaking. And I don’t know”.
1578 “’I went out in the afternoon near to the beach’?”
Reply “Well ‘to the beach’, I think possibly me and Matt may have kayaked”.
1578 “So we will cross-out ‘near to the beach’ and ‘think’?”
Reply “’Matt and I went kayaking’. I think Dave came, yeah, maybe even Dave came as well. There was, there was several on one occasion, the three, the three of us”.
1578 “’Kayaking, possibly with Dave’?”
Reply “Possibly, but certainly with Matt and maybe ‘with Matt and possibly also Dave’. There was one, there was one occasion when the three of us took the kayaks out. And I’m not quite sure what the next bit is, ‘Saw your children with their Nannies at the Mini Club. We met at the Tapas Bar’. I think this is actually, this is, that’s, this is me describing what happened at the end of the afternoon, the afternoon Mini Club. At the end of the morning session we generally had to pick them up from Ocean Club, at the end of the afternoon session the Nannies would bring them up on a little kind of plastic chain, all the kids would sort of hold onto a thing”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “And they would walk them through that garden I described on Tuesday and they’d come across the road and go to high tea about five o’clock. So I think, certainly we wouldn’t go to the beach and ‘Saw the children with their Nannies at the Mini Club’, I mean, we went to the beach had a kayak and the children came back to high tea at about half five, brought back by the Nannies from Ocean Club”.
00.45.05 1578 “’The children came back about half five to high tea’?”
Reply “Yeah, from, ‘from Ocean Club accompanied by the Nannies’ which is what they did every day. Maybe, this is just the description of, of what tended to happen. As I say, we didn’t have, you didn’t have to do a pick up at”.
1578 “’The children came back about five thirty pm from Ocean Club’?”
Reply “Yeah, five fifteen, five thirty, yeah”.
1578 “’To’?”
Reply “’To the Tapas area’, there was a sort of raised covered area where they would sit all the kids down and they would bring them out their food, so they were fed separately”.
1578 “’For high tea’?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d never heard of the word ‘high tea’ until I’d been to MARK WARNER. Okay, yeah, I think there’s, I mean, certainly days that were generally uneventful and nothing kind of sticks out in my mind about anything unusual that gave us any suggestion that we were in for, for the events that we were in for”.
1578 “Umm”.
Reply “It’s worth, it says, ‘I recall that there was a Trivia Quiz on either Tuesday or Wednesday evening, it was conducted by aerobics’, this is wrong. This was a way, if you had other information, of working out which day I wasn’t there. There was, the day that I didn’t, so either on the Monday or Tuesday, the day that I wasn’t there, that, that I think it was that, there was an aerobics instructor who, this is second-hand information, who was drumming up some support for, some group called Pool Aerobics or something, from the people who were there. And the only reason I mentioned that was, if you had that information in other people’s statements about what night the quiz took place on, that was the night I wasn’t there”.
00.47.55 1578 “Right. ‘I recall there was a Trivia Quiz on either the Tuesday or Wednesday evening’”.
Reply “So that might be better, jumping back up to where I have said ‘I know on one of the evenings, either the Monday or Tuesday, I stayed in the flat with E*** wasn’t well and Jane brought her over’, so if at the end of that statement, that paragraph, it then says ‘this occurred on the night where there was a Trivia Quiz, possibly conducted by the aerobics instructor’, I mean, that would, that would. And then when, when the statements are, are cross-referenced, then I think it would be probably fairly apparent to know which night that was”.
1578 “Then we can delete those two lines?”
Reply “And then the rest of it can go, yeah, that doesn’t, I mean, I might as well hop, hop back up to the, the other bit. But I wasn’t there, I don’t recall the Trivia Quiz, that was the night I wasn’t there, it is only speaking to other people, that I know that that was, that that was the night I missed. On Wednesday, it might be worth saying that ‘Rachael was ill and stayed in the flat’”.
1578 “Right. So ‘On Wednesday Rachael was ill and stayed in the flat’?”
Reply “In five ‘B’. It says ‘I checked the McCANN’s apartment’, kind of implies I may have gone in. I think that I made a check to the apartments at that point, which would have been in, certainly by this point, it was generally a listen outside with the others and a check on your own”.
1578 “’I checked the McCANN’s apartment and I believe that this was around twenty-three hundred’?”
Reply “Yeah, I think this is a kind of fusion of all that we were discussing on the extra, the extra visits back from the bar and I said well within that hour I think me and Jane, yeah, me and Jane had gone back, once each”.
1578 “And this was on the Wednesday?”
Reply “This was just the Wednesday. This is when we stayed, after the meal we stayed in the bar area for a, for a cocktail or something and then, so we were out for a little longer than any of, any of the other nights. And on the, but the way it’s written there it says that I checked the McCANN’s apartment, but I think by this part of the week, certainly on my, from my, my own, when I went back I generally went into our apartment and then we’d just have a listen at the shutters on the others”.
00.50.33 1578 “So if I say or if we say there ‘I checked the McCANN’s apartment by listening at the shutters’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, from outside, yeah. And that would have been true for Matt’s as well. Certainly I didn’t end up, after that first Sunday night, I don’t really recall going into the other people’s apartments with any, at all really, I think it was largely a listen to make sure all was quiet and a check on your own. And everyone was doing this, with a listen outside. So there were fairly regular listens and then slightly less regular visits inside by people, individual, parents. It says ‘All appeared to be well’ rather than ‘too well’. ‘It all appeared too well’ sounds a bit ominous”.
1578 “Yes, possibly right”.
Reply “’Went to the flat with E*** No, I didn’t leave Ev***the flat. It says ‘Went to the flat with E***whileshe was resting I went outside to watch Jane play tennis’. I think I was sat and, I went to the flat with E** she, I think she did have a snooze that morning, and I read a book and played with her and then, at some stage, I think when Jane had finished playing tennis, I then went out with E** play tennis”.
1578 “Right. So we just need to add in there then?”
Reply “Well if it just said that, well E*camewith me to watch the tennis, E*wasn’t in the flat on her own at that point during the day. ‘Went to the flat with E* read a book, later me and E*went outside to watch Jane play tennis’ full-stop. Maybe, ‘I believe I saw Madeleine at lunchtime’, I’m sure that. And it says ‘I can’t recall if I collected El*or whether she was brought up by the Nannies, it’s all a bit hazy now’, I think I can probably say the Nannies did not bring the children back at the end of the morning session because there was no tea, they weren’t bringing them back sort of thing. So I think I can probably, I can probably clarify there that, ‘Either Jane or I collected El*from the’ ‘Ocean Club, Mini Club’”.
00.53.16 1578 “’Either Jane or I’?”
Reply “Yeah, and it’s slightly out of order here now. The next paragraph, yeah, the wording, it’s a bit, it’s a bit sort of, I mean, there’s, there’s such a kind of, uncomfortable coincidences next, in this next, but this is out of order, this is before we have gone and collected E** So after I’ve gone out to play tennis, the next couple of paragraphs occur and then ‘We probably saw Madeleine at lunchtime and one of us probably collected El*so it’s slightly out of, it’s slightly out of synch this”.
1578 “So”.
Reply “So these two paragraphs probably are going to go in at the point where I went outside to play tennis”.
1578 “Sorry, which two paragraphs?”
Reply “Well the bit about the”.
1578 “So those two paragraphs”.
Reply “The chap on holiday, feeling, awkward, taking a photograph of his daughter”.
1578 “Yes, they want to be slipped in?”
Reply “They need to go at the end of ‘I went outside to watch Jane play tennis’ full-stop, because everything else is at lunchtime, this was actually before lunchtime. I think the wording here is a bit, is a bit”.
1578 “In between ‘play tennis’ and ‘I believe I saw Madeleine at lunchtime’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, so that’s coming, ‘I saw Madeleine at lunchtime’ and ‘Me or Jane collected El*from the Ocean Club’ will be a kind of, a later paragraph. No, this is wrong.”.
00.54.54 1578 “Just bear with me a moment please”.
Reply “I mean, the essence of it is right, but, but the”.
1578 “So we now go to?”
Reply “’I recall’, I mean, it’s a bit, it doesn’t need the ‘I recall’. ‘After’, it’s actually ‘After Jane’”.
1578 “Are these the two paragraphs that we want to?”
Reply “That we’ll be moving to, at the end of that (inaudible)?”
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “It’s actually going to be ‘After Jane’s tennis lesson’. You can actually delete ‘Madeleine was playing tennis’ at all, because, it wasn’t Madeleine, Madeleine and E**a had done this the day before”.
1578 “Okay. So I shall take out ‘I recall that Jane was having a tennis lesson’?”
Reply “It’s just ‘After Jane’s tennis lesson’”. And then you can actually delete ‘Madeleine was playing tennis, they were having a lesson’, because that, well it wasn’t Madeleine that day at all. It says ‘After Jane’s tennis lesson’, I’ll try and preserve it as much as possible, ‘I recall that one of the guests’, ‘a man from Southampton came up’ full-stop. ‘His daughter’, it was his three year old daughter, ‘his young daughter was having a’, this, it may be word perfect, ‘was having a’,”.
1578 “We have got ‘His daughter was playing tennis’?”
Reply “Well, yeah, his, his daughter was having a tennis lesson, a kid’s tennis lesson, I mean, she was only, she was probably the same age as E and E, they were in the same, they were all at the same clubs but they had, there were, there were a certain number of children so they had them in two groups, so they didn’t always do the same thing, Beavers and the Lobsters or something. And, yeah, she was having a, a sort of, well kind of a kiddies tennis lesson”.
00.56.50 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “And the question about Madeleine then, this is exactly the same as Madeleine and E had done the day before. And that’s where that very famous picture of Madeleine with the tennis b*lls was taken, so. But it wasn’t Madeline on this day, Madeleine and E were in the same group and I think they’d been done on, the Tuesday or the Wednesday, they had come up, so they all, there were two kind of mini kid groups, mini club kid groups and they did, they were on like a rota and they did things at different times and on different days. So Madeleine was not there at that point at all. And I think that’s important, particularly, because of what the man said, if Madeleine was potentially being photographed by anyone, it was absolutely clear that Madeleine and E were not there that day. It says ‘I recall that a guy from Southampton came up, his daughter was playing tennis, he wanted to take a picture’, ‘but casual’, maybe ‘casually expressed to us how uncomfortable he felt in doing so’”.
1578 “’But casually expressed’?”
Reply “Yeah, he wasn’t, he just. And it might be worth saying that, he said that the, something like, ‘These days you feel like a pervert’ or maybe just extending that, ‘You feel like a dirty old man taking a picture of your own daughter’ maybe just to make it a bit more explicit, because that’s what he said, he didn’t just come up and say ‘Oh I feel like a dirty old man’, sort of, ‘In this’, ‘The way things are these days’, ‘you feel like a criminal’ or ‘a dirty old man taking a photo of your own kid’”.
1578 “’The way things are these days you feel like a’?”
Reply “Yeah, it, it was, it was a, it wasn’t just a ‘Oh I feel a bit dirty taking this’”.
1578 “Did he use the word ‘pervert’?”
Reply “Huh, we had a whole conversation about this and whether those were his first words or whether this was what, because there was Kate, there was myself, Jane, Rachael, him, there was a small group, around, and I think he felt a little self-conscious because he was walking past another group of parents taking a photograph of several kids at the net of the tennis”.
00.58.58 1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “I don’t know if he used the word ‘perv’, but the conversation went round on this and, that, that society, makes, can make normal parents feel uncomfortable doing what ten, twenty, thirty years ago would have been considered an entirely innocent thing, like taking a photograph. I think it would be ‘a dirty old man’, ‘feel a bit of a perv’, phew, I don’t know what his first words were. But then we actually had a conversation and I think, we, probably as a group, kind of said, said ‘It’s ridiculous isn’t it, you take a picture of your own kid and you’re made to feel like you’re a pervert’ or something like that. And I don’t like the next paragraph the way it is, I think its”.
1578 “Just a moment. And present at that conversation were?”
Reply “Well certainly myself, Jane, Kate and Rachael, I don’t know if there was any, I think it was kind of generally a sort of women’s tennis lesson that had gone on, there may have been a partner of one of the other, of the other guests, there were a couple of people who were, who Kate and Rachael and Jane had played with, I, I forget the names. I’ve got this vague recollection there was a lady who, probably in her mid-forties, blonde hair, who may have been there as well, I, I never really spoke to her really. But there may have been one person like in the group as well who had been playing tennis. And this chap who, who whose name is in my original statement, I’m afraid I’ve forgotten what it was, but he, as I say, he lives in Southampton, he was there with his wife and a young kid and, and had lived in Exeter about fifteen years before, which was one of the conversations we had, at that point. But, yeah, those are, those, certainly Rachael, Kate and myself, Jane and this man”.
1578 “Okay”.
01.01.23 Reply “And the next paragraph just doesn’t, I know it’s been cobbled together, it doesn’t read, actually I think”.
1578 “’I found this most uncomfortable’?”
Reply “Well, no, I think, not”.
1578 “Or are we going down to E?”
Reply “No, no, no, ‘I found this most’, I mean, huh, it’s my recollection that at the time it seemed, like, huh, a slightly lamenting conversation about the state of modern day, Britain, so maybe, I think it might be worth just to clarify, we then, , something like ‘We then had a conversation about the seemingly’, , ‘ludicrous nature of’,”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “’Of, , ‘that you couldn’t take photographs of your own children’”.
1578 “’We then had a conversation’?”
Reply “Yeah, that ‘the ludicrous pressure on parents that they can’t take photographs of their own children’, because I think that was the essence of it. And certainly the other, the other aspect of the conversation that was made, which kind of, is, huh, is doubly haunting, was that, we said that, ‘You’re far’, You’re far more likely to get clobbered by your uncle or your neighbour than some’ ‘random stranger’.Which in light of the way that the Police investigation has gone, it feels like, a real kick in the nuts”.
1578 “’Far more like to get clobbered by’?”
Reply “You’re far more likely to have to have a problem with somebody, from somebody and we actually said, and that was actually sort of said, we all worry about, , a small number of fairly kind of sick perverts”.
1578 “Rather than a stranger?”
01.03.14 Reply “Rather than a stranger, yeah, but, huh, which of course, of course statistically is true. And the bit here that says ‘I found this most uncomfortable’, is that, since, since this happened, ten or eleven hours before, before Madeleine was abducted, it just seemed a really, it’s really, a very, very uncomfortable coincidence, ever since I found this, this whole pile of things that are nast, are really kind of unpleasant, but the fact that we actually had this conversation, within twelve hours of her going missing was, was, well, haunting, that men were. .It’s just, I mean, it is just a coincidence, it’s not as if, within the space of a year in Britain, , you don’t hear of, a school banning cameras and, it’s quite, it’s not an uncommon conversation I think for, for parents with young children these days to think has it gone too far, is there too much, is there too much kind of worry and protection and are we, damaging children’s upbringing, by by not allowing them to, to run free a little. I think, yeah, and the last statement, I definitely want that there. I mean, as far as I was concerned, this was, this was an entirely reasonable comment from this man, he’d just walked past a few parents, some of whom he probably didn’t know, and he was taking photographs of his daughter, who was on this tennis court, but there were adjacent children in, in, in shot. I can, particularly as a, as a man, can particularly understand how he might have felt going up there because clearly, this is, this is something that, you need to be aware of. And my dad, we’ve had a conversation about this since, when I was little and growing up, in the street he would freely talk, he would freely talk with my friends and people going by and he says, just, these days you just, you just ignore people, you ignore children because you wouldn’t want anyone to sort of think that you were, you were kind of, trying to entertain them with an ulterior motive. So this did not feel bad and I would hate to think that me saying this that anyone would think that I was trying to implicate this man, I do not think that there was anything untoward in it”.
01.05.55 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Yeah, ‘I went back to the Kids Club’, ‘I think Jane was looking after E’, well ‘Jane was looking after E’, there wasn’t a question of”.
1578 “So ‘I think that’ wants coming out?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘Jane was looking after E’, we didn’t, we didn’t put her into, into the club that afternoon. Yeah, ‘When I was with Matt he fell in the water and I saved him’. The saviour. yeah. Sorry, yeah, the rest of that page is fine. It sounds like I’m blowing my own trumpet there, but I’m a bad sailor, it, it was quite a, it was quite feat. So at the end of page”.
1578 “Where are we now up to?”
Reply “’When I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had saved him’, ‘which made the day quite memorable’, yeah, full-stop. Oh that, and it being ‘the best day weather wise’, yeah, it was a really nice day”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “Okay?”
1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “ ‘Jane was at the beach with the children (inaudible) she was in full running kit’. You did ask me about what kit she had on at the time, I mean, I said I think it was probably either a grey vest top, it was probably slightly less than a tee-shirt, and sort of blue sort of sports, female running shorts, or the colours were the other way round, but, that would be a guesstimate. You also asked if we, oh well you’ve got it later on, it says ‘When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us but she did acknowledge us as a group’. I think, yeah, I mean, that perhaps goes back, it just needs, it’s a bit out of order, but it’s there nonetheless.No”.
1578 “Do you want me to put that sentence in ‘in full running kit’?”

Reply “It just, I suppose, ‘She was dressed in her full running kit’ and the description of it and ‘When Kate ran past’, then at least it’s all the facts together. The next. Sorry, you haven’t finished yet. The next, the next statement is wrong. It says ‘The Nannies had brought the children up for readiness for tea, I can’t say if I saw Madeleine when E came back’, that’s wrong. What happened was, ordinarily we would have met all the children from the Kids Club, the Mini Club at high tea, they would have been brought up and sat down by the Nannies and we’d have just joined the group, we’d have been there when they got there. On this occasion we were on the beach and as it got towards five o’clock I, I pelted up the hill to collect El before they were taken up to the main complex. Does that make sense? And so, the reason that I think this is in here is, you were asking me I think if I’d saw Madeleine there, now because I got there before the children had left, by rights Madeleine should have been there as well, unless Kate and Gerry had taken her out earlier for some reason. With eleven months passage, I can’t, if I’m honest with you, I can’t picture whether Madeleine was there. But, generally speaking, by this point in the afternoon people were not, we weren’t collecting, we weren’t doing any collecting in that afternoon, so I think Madeleine will have been there. But if I’m honest, I can’t, hand on heart, say, when I picked El up and took her down to the beach before the Nannies took her up to, for high tea, that I saw Madeleine there. But I got in early enough to get El out before the end of, well, arrived just before they actually left to go up, so by rights she should have been there”.
01.10.03 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “And I think, I, I can’t remember what I said in my original statement on that one, to be fair. My gut feeling is that she was there when I picked El up. But, as I say, hand on heart, that’s not, that’s not a”.
1578 “Yeah, you do say you can’t say if you saw Madeleine”.
Reply “No, I think now it’s, I can’t honestly say that Madeleine was there when I picked El up at five, but there was no particular reason why we were doing any of these pick ups, the only reason I ran up there was because we were on, we were on the beach and we didn’t want El to be taken all the way up to high tea. And I think by this point we’d already decided we were going to stay on the beach and go and have some food down there”.
01.10.49 1578 “’When El came back’, those four words?”
Reply “Yeah, that’s wrong, I mean, that’s not quite right, I can’t. Well you need to delete ‘The Nannies had brought the children up in readiness for tea’, because that, that’s not true, I mean, I got El before they’d even taken her up, so that can go, it needs to go out entirely. And the comment about that was that ‘The Nannies would have taken them up to tea at the Tapas had I not’, well ‘would have taken El had I not got in there and signed her out and brought her down to the beach’. But I think it’s fair enough to say that, ‘I’m not entirely convinced now whether Madeleine was there or not, but I’ve no reason to suppose that she wasn’t’. And it’s not ‘when El came back’, so perhaps ‘I’m not entirely sure whether Madeleine was there now when I picked El up, when I collected El’”.
1578 “And this was from the Kiddies Club?”
Reply “Yes, I picked them up from the, from the club in the, just the sort of first floor of the Ocean Club complex, sort of main reception”.
1578 “And you then took her back down to the beach?”
Reply “We went back down to the beach. I suppose be a bit more specific about what happened on the beach. Yeah, ‘We didn’t stick to the usual routine that day’ ‘ate their tea at the bar on the beach called the Paradiso. Everyone was there except Kate, Gerry and the kids’. It might be worth just saying ‘I believe Dianne was there as well’, because that’s the only person, I’m not entirely sure, we did, occasionally pop there during the day on a number of occasions, rarely in the week or after the abduction, but I’m pretty sure Dianne was there. I think, I say ‘I think Dave went to his apartment and Kate and Gerry’s’”.
1578 “’I think Dave went to his apartment’?”
Reply “’His apartment and Kate and Gerry’s’. At the end of the next, it was ‘Dan the tennis coach was also present, as were a handful of other male guests’. ‘And Gerry’, for that matter, it doesn’t, doesn’t explicitly say that Gerry was playing some tennis, which he was. So ‘Dan the tennis coach was also present’, err, ‘as were Dave, Matt, Gerry and several other male guests’. It’s probably worth, I don’t think they, I’m not sure whether the kids were still awake or not. I think by the time Jane left to go down the kids were in bed but they hadn’t been in bed and asleep for as long as, as we’d normal had, just to make sure that they were definitely settled, but I suppose that’s too, too critical. ‘The children were awake’, I know the children were only just in bed”.
01.15.58 1578 “’The children were awake’, you want it to say ‘The children’?”
Reply “’The children were only just in bed when Jane went down to the restaurant around half’, well, ‘The children had not long been in bed when Jane went down to the restaurant around’, err, we were late, so I think I’ve said twenty thirty to twenty forty there, we were late, so, I mean, you could lose the ‘twenty thirty’. Because we played tennis a lot later and Jane was trying to get them bathed and bed and on her own it invariably takes a lot longer than when the two of us did it”.
1578 “Sorry, ‘Jane went to the restaurant around’?”
Reply “I think, it says ‘around twenty thirty to twenty forty’, she did go down late, so that was the whole point, so”.
1578 “So you want to remove ‘twenty thirty’?”
Reply “I think just say, yeah, just say it was ‘twenty forty’. We certainly didn’t get down there bang on time. ‘(inaudible) ten minutes or so to settle down. Went down to the Tapas Bar’ full-stop. Huh, Dave and Fi are going to kill us if they ever read this. ‘Five ‘H’ were running late as usual, Dave and Fi are always late, it’s a standing joke in our group’, yeah. Ha ha, being absolutely condemned. ‘At nine o’clock’, okay, that’s fine.I think you did ask me when I arrived, does it say that there, yeah. I suppose it’s probably worth saying ‘I went down to the Tapas Bar, everyone was present except the adults in five ‘H’’. I think you’d asked me who was at the table, Jane was there, Rachael and Matt were there, Kate and Gerry were there. There wasn’t a question of anyone else missing, just, from either end of the apartments”.
01.18.08 1578 “’I went to Tapas Bar and everyone’?”
Reply “’Except the adult occupants of five ‘H’ were present’”.
1578 “But the children weren’t present?”
Reply “No, no, no. Yeah, the next paragraph looks a little, well it’s a bit out of order, isn’t it, is that all it says”.
1578 (inaudible)
Reply “Okay, well I’ll just go, it just looks like it goes a bit kind of strange in the order really”.
1578 “Right, yeah”.
Reply “Okay, so up until ‘The evening was the same as the evenings before. Kate and Gerry behaving entirely normal’ is fine. Do you mind if I have a quick wee?”
1578 “No, not at all, no”.
Reply “I’ll be two secs”.
1578 “I shall leave the disc running”.
01.19.45 O'BRIEN left the interview room.
01.21.14 O'BRIEN returned to the interview room.
01.21.17 1578 “Okay?”
Reply “Yeah. Thanks for that”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Right”.
1578 “I think this was the point where you mentioned a timeline”.
Reply “Oh right. So we kind of started to describe that. Yeah, it just seems to, it seems to, okay, well, I’ll, I’ll remember bits and just see if it seems to read in order. Okay, yeah, I think”.
01.21.49 1578 “Chronologically”.
Reply “Chronologically, in order, Matt had got up, as has already been said, just to check on the rooms and also to, maybe worth I suppose to say ‘Around nine o’clock Matt was going to check on G*and the other windows as well’, because he did, he did a, he actually did a check”.
1578 “So in there then you want?”
Reply “’Did a check on G*, ‘and’”.
1578 “’To check on G*?”
Reply “’And listen at the other windows, at the other apartment windows’, because that’s, as we said on Tuesday and in that very hastily scribbled timeline on the back of the, the kind of kids book, he was very adamant at that point that all of the external shutters appeared to be in, in the, in the down position, untampered with”.
1578 “So ‘Around twenty-one hundred hours Matt was going over to check on G*?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’And listen at the other apartment windows’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “‘So he said he would chase up the PAYNEs as we were all waiting’?”
Reply “Who were actually already on, and they were, they crossed paths on”.
1578 “Yes. ‘We were conscious of the waiting staff’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’Wanting us to place our orders’?”
Reply “Yeah, and the next short paragraph is fine. And I suppose what this is saying really is that obviously we, we sat, we sat down and, together after the events and we tried to come up with the, the best kind of timeline collectively, but”.
01.23.24 1578 “Maybe chronologically that should go later in your statement?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah. So I think, maybe it started, if I just kind of, for the moment at least, I’ll remember that, but I don’t recall what time, point it was, but around, around, yeah, five or ten past nine. I think that’s the time that Gerry was actually potentially away really, that Gerry was away from the table, I don’t, I don’t specifically remember him sort of standing up anymore, say like eleven months on, he was, he was away for, about sort of ten minutes or so or something like that, five or ten minutes. But he went, he went, he went, Matt went around nine and he went around kind of five past or ten past nine”.
1578 “’I don’t recall at what time, at what point, it was around twenty-one zero five to twenty-one twenty’?”
Reply “I think that’s, that’s almost the time that he would have been away for, not that he left as late as, twenty-one twenty, yeah. So he, he went, he was away, but, I mean, I, to be honest, as I’ve said here, it’s the timeline that kind of says when Gerry went up. Yeah, ‘Jane also went to check the children and was gone for a short time’, I think it was, to be more specific there ‘It was just a matter of a couple of minutes’. Yeah, ‘She didn’t mention anything unusual’. ‘After we’d eaten the starters I needed to go to the toilet and Matt and I said we would go and check on the children’, yeah. ‘We altogether recall that the light was fading’, yeah, I think, and we discussed this the other day, and I did mention this to Stuart PRIOR as well, I mean, it says ‘was fading’ there, I think it was probably dark then, but I can’t actually picture the light, you were asking me about the street lights particularly”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “But when, when I was in the flat after, just a little bit on from here, I can picture Matt when he came back from the flat and certainly he was standing in the doorway saying, ‘Do you need any help or are you alright with E*on your own’, it was pretty, it was, it was pretty dark outside, admittedly standing inside with the light on at this point, but it was pretty dark, it was, it was fairly dark”.
01.25.52 1578 “So are you happy with ‘The light was fading’?”
Reply “Yeah, well, yeah, I think it was, the light, the light was, was, was quite, was well on the way towards, dusk there. I don’t know whether that makes it sound like it was just beginning to, beginning to get dark or whether it was actually quite dark. I mean, I think a minute or, or two after this point, where we were walking up, certainly from standing inside the apartment with Matt in the door, it looked, I can picture the background there and it was pretty dark, but then again you flick a light on and it will look dark”.
1578 “If you read on a sentence or two you should come to the point where Matt came to your apartment so we could add in it there?”
Reply “Yeah, we could, we could add, we could add it there, yeah, okay. ‘I went straight to five ‘D’, I could hear at the door E*was murmuring’, well ‘at the window’ rather than ‘the door’, I think”.
1578 “Sorry, where is that?”
Reply “Well the door is there and E*s in the bedroom next to it, so I would have thought we’d have heard it from”.
1578 “’I could hear at the’?”
Reply “’Hear at the window E*was murmuring’”.
1578 “So we will substitute ‘door’ for ‘window’?”
Reply “’Window’, yeah. I think it’s the opposite way round really, ‘I went to the toilet to urinate’, and I knew, I knew, because E*was awake, I was staying anyway , so ‘I went to the toilet to urinate and then checked on E*and she had been sick’, so I think I actually went”.
1578 “Okay, I will swap those?”
Reply “Just round, yeah. I had a pee first because I was a little desperate. ‘I started to clean her up and change her. Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help. I said ‘No, go back and tell Jane that E**e was unwell’’”.
01.27.53 1578 “So if we include in there ‘Matt came into my apartment’?”
Reply “Oh yeah, yeah, ‘He asked if I needed any help’. At that point, the external light was, was, was fairly low, it looked pretty dark, well I can picture Matt in the doorway and it was fairly dark”.
1578 “So your choice of words ‘pretty dark’ ‘fairly dark’?”
Reply “’Fairly dark’. The only other thing I can remember that we mentioned, I’m just going to see if it’s coming in the next, no, it’s not in here and I think it, I mean, we did mention it on Tuesday but it hasn’t been put here. That, given the amount of stick that, that I’ve had with the Portuguese Press for not requesting any fresh sheets for E**e, I think I’d actually like to point out that the, that this wasn’t some third world, apartment and it did actually have a washing machine. And, we’ve been, they don’t know where it’s come from, but I don’t know whether it is a question that the PJ have particularly done, but, every time I translated to the PJ, the Portuguese Press article, it says that we never requested any, we never requested any further sheets and if they were sick all over them then how could this be true. But it’s quite sort of staggering that eight months later then the fact that there was a washing machine in the building isn’t in there, so I would be very keen for that to be put in please”.
1578 “Okay. So at the end of paragraph?”
Reply “So ‘I told him to go back and tell Jane that E**e was unwell’, I’d obviously cleaned her up and changed her. I think maybe what I would do is I’d say ‘Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help, I said ‘No, go back and tell Jane that E**e was unwell’’ and then, because I don’t think that I would have had time then, it was then I started, ‘I got her out, I gave her a quick wash in the bath, changed her, got the sheet off the cot’, and at least, whether I started the washing machine then, but at least ‘I put them in the washing machine and then sat down with E**e’. But I want it in there that there was a blo*dy washing machine in the apartment”.
01.30.16 1578 “’Gave E**e a quick bath’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’Changed her’?”
Reply “’Changed her’ and, MARK WARNER do stretch to cleaning facilities on their holidays, so”.
1578 “’And placed bed linen’?”
Reply “Excuse to sound so cynical, but. ‘And placed’, well I don’t think, I don’t think I necessarily put the, I got the dirty linen and her clothes off and at least I think, there was a few bits of sick and I probably gave them a rinse off in the bath and then just shoved them in the washing machine, whether I started it then or did it later I’ve no idea. But, since we’ve been”.
1578 “’And placed clothing’”.
Reply “Suspicion has been put on us because, we didn’t request any further sheets. I think I’d rather have it in there that”.
1578 “’Into the washing machine’”.
Reply “That even as a man I can use a washing machine, staggering though that may sound. Anyway, enough of that. I think, say ‘Jane came back, we were in the flat together for a number of minutes’, it might be worth adding, so ‘Jane came back having eaten her meal at approximately twenty-one forty’ or something like that”.
1578 “Right. So where are we now then?”
Reply “’I sat in the lounge and read to E**e. Jane came back having eaten her meal’ and I thought maybe say, ‘There was probably a number of minutes, no more than five, that’, ‘where we were in the flat together’”.
1578 “‘We were in the flat together for about five minutes’?”
Reply “Yeah, it wasn’t more than that, but, yeah, (inaudible) Jane having to relieve me (inaudible) Kate left the table. Written here that ‘There was nothing significant about her leaving’, I think, I think we’d actually discussed that it wasn’t, it wasn’t a clear moment in my mind or certainly not like eleven months on, and again, and again I don’t know what, what my original statement said, but certainly the comment that ‘The table was in good humour and there was nothing different about the nature or the mood there or the fact that anyone had got up and left’. I don’t think anyone else got up and left after my return apart from, apart from Kate. Yeah, I’d say ‘I think it would have been about ten o’clock’, I didn’t have a watch. There was a point at this time where some, does it say here, that somebody around the table asked what the time was and I think Rachael asked and they answered that it was about ten o’clock. That is probably worth saying, because I think, there’s a little bit of, best, best estimate on some of the other times, there was, around the time of ten, there was actually somebody announced at the table it was about ten o’clock”.
01.33.45 1578 “So at the end of the paragraph?”
Reply “’Kate left the table, there was nothing significant about her leaving, but I think it was a similar time to my meal arriving’. Oh yeah, yeah, I suppose that’s a point. There it might say ‘The Tapas staff kindly re-cooked my main course’, because I got back at twenty-one forty-five, but the food was probably, the best part of ten minutes later before I got it”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Probably if, the last sentence, this last sentence here”.
Reply “Oh yeah, straight after, yeah, good point, yeah. ‘After me arriving back I waited for them to cook a fresh meal’, say, ‘which arrived perhaps twenty-one fifty-five’ or ‘approximately twenty-one fifty-five’”.
1578 “’I know that she didn’t leave’, oh okay, ‘I know that she didn’t leave straight after me arriving back’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, I think there was there was a period of time, yeah. Yeah, that’s fair enough, it wasn’t sort of a question of me arriving and her going, it was a good, there was a fair amount of time before I got my food anyway. It says there ‘And a great deal of thought he may have been watching us’, well it says ‘watching’ but I thing, ‘watching us during the week’ might be more explicit about what that means”.
01.35.43 1578 “After ‘watching’, it is’ watching us during the week’?”
Reply “’Watching us’, yeah, ‘during the week’. It says ‘The only people who would have known our routine would have been the waiters’ and that’s clearly not, that’s, perhaps just a bit strong, as I said on Tuesday, I’ve certainly got no, no reason to, to be suspicious about any particular person or, or people. But, it may be worth just, just making a statement of the fact that ‘The waiters would have been aware of our routine’, just change it to that and then it’s less, it’s less definitive than, somebody else could have been watching and, I think it’s just that, probably better that way”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “And then it says ‘I can’t recall whether there were any other people dining in the restaurant at the time’, there, there had been other people there, it’s just I can’t, so maybe say ‘There were other people earlier on’ at least, I think because we were eating quite late and we were late, most people had eaten and gone by, by ten o’clock, but it’s, it’s”.
1578 “So say that ‘There were other people’?”
Reply “’Other people were dining earlier on but I did not recall who they were and I think we were the last, the last diners by the time that the alarm was raised’”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “‘Once we’d gone over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment’, no, that doesn’t really make sense, ‘Listened at the door’, no, I didn’t listen at the door, I’m not sure what, that’s sort of a bit,”.
1578 “I think this is when you went in earlier in the week, isn’t it?”
Reply “I think there is a bit of, you, I think at this point you, you actually got the, the, diagram out and just, just pointed some things out perhaps. But, no, I mean, this is all, all a bit peculiar,”.
01.38.24 1578 “’Once we’d gone over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment’?”
Reply “’Some people went up the steps and entered the apartment’. This is, this is a bit out of place, isn’t it, really”.
1578 “Can you just bear with me. ‘Some people went up the steps and entered the apartment’ and take out ‘listened at the door’?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘Some remained at the porch entry’, ‘at the’, I keep saying porch, ‘at the foot of the stairs’, is probably the best one. And then the rest of this paragraph needs to go entirely somewhere else, doesn’t it, it’s actually describing the apartment, and, and actually the visits”.
1578 “Do you remember when you did go into the apartment?”
Reply “Sunday night. Oh you mean on the night?”
1578 “On the Sunday night”.
Reply “Erm”.
1578 “I think here we’re referring to the”.
Reply “The night in questions. But then, then, then, this is actually my description of, you were saying what else was in the room, you had the plan out at some point, although it seems that this has, this has somehow kind of migrated to a different part of the, the order, I think by the time we are here we didn’t double back and start talking about my visit in the room, but. This perhaps might be best”.
1578 “So this visit into the apartment, certainly this sentence ‘I didn’t go into the apartment from what I can recall (inaudible)’, oh sorry, no”.
Reply “Yeah, I went into the apartment on Sunday. This is almost like a fusion of, of the two things. I mean, I didn’t go into the apartment directly after the alarm had been raised, I don’t think, we just sort of got to the, the exit, some people had gone in and some of us kind of formulated ‘Right, where shall we’, ‘We’ll have a quick look around while they’re checking the apartment’. So this is, this is partly looking back at when you were, you had the plan out and said, ‘Was there anywhere big like a wardrobe where you could hide’”.
01.40.51 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “And then I described, what I’d done on my Sunday check on their kids, when I actually did go in through the patio door and from, I’d, I’d come in through the patio door here and gone across sort of diagonally to the, the room where the children were and then just sort of listened at the door without actually entering. And then you said ‘What else was in the room’ and then I described that there was a table, sort of, I think a wooden table, a kind of traditional sort of table, and some seated area nearer, nearer the door and that the overall layout of the flat was very similar to the one that me and Jane were staying in, in terms of symmetry, the size of the rooms, but the furniture and the fittings were, were very different, because they were all individual flats, I think leased by MARK WARNER.So I’m not quite sure where, where that lot could go. But that’s, I suppose it’s on the video record anyway now. On the Sunday night I entered via the, via the patio, just went to the frame of the door and listened in the room, I didn’t actually go in. And what I said then really, that the flat was very similar to ours in, in its layout, symmetry and, size, but the fittings were entirely different”.
1578 “And, I suppose, chronologically, we can include that to your Sunday night”.
Reply “Yeah, chronologically, that could”.
1578 “We can move”.
Reply “The description of the flat and what I thought the furniture was, and the fact that it resembled very, almost identically in fact, the, the layout of our flat”.
1578 “On the Sunday night”.
Reply “Umm”.
1578 “So that can be moved to earlier in the statement?”
01.43.05 Reply “Yes, the Sunday night, yeah”.
1578 “So if we continue chronologically then”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “The alarm has been raised?”
Reply “The alarm has been raised and then it, unfortunately it does then double back”.
1578 “’I didn’t go into the apartment’?”
Reply “Yeah, no, I didn’t go, yeah, okay, so we’re back to that bit. ‘I didn’t go into the apartment’ and then the rest, at this point, the rest of that’s irrelevant, the whole of that, in fact the whole of that paragraph is then irrelevant at that point. Yeah, I suppose that might be best just the start of. ‘On this evening I was wearing’, yeah, they’re, I don’t know you’d describe them, they’re kind of, they’re not, they’re not quite jeans, but, yeah, they’re a kind of a mix, I’d say sort of a mix of material, ‘and a stripy shirt’, it’s not a ‘top’, it was a ‘shirt’, it was similar to the one I’ve got on here”.
1578 “’A pale striped shirt’ shall we call that?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘greens and browns’”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “ ‘Jane had taken my jumper which was blue’, yeah, a sort of smock style jumper I’ll describe it as and she had that on at some point”.
1578 “’A smock jumper’?”
Reply “Yeah, one of these ones that, that have a, a relatively, a naval kind of feel to the collar, it’s a weird, sort of a weird fish”.
1578 “Are you happy with ‘smock type jumper’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah. Phew, ‘I’m quite used the cold’, I don’t know whether I’m quite used to the cold, maybe ‘I tend not to feel the cold’, ha ha”.
1578 “Okay. ‘I tend not to”.
01.45.45 Reply “Because these paragraphs are a little bit out of the flow, but (inaudible), fine, okay, that’s fine. ‘When I went to check the children I went to my flat first and then Matt walked on to his flat five ‘B’, I believe that he then went to check the McCANN’s children’, perhaps that paragraph just needs to be lifted to the appropriate point on the last page”.
1578 “I think at some point we are going to get to the phase where we were asking you direct questions”.
Reply “Yeah. Okay. I mean, at least, fact, factually, there’s no, I don’t think there’s anything, the only problem with that paragraph ‘Went to the children, went to my flat first, then Matt walked on to flat five ‘B’, I believe he then went to check the McCANN’s children, he was gone for sixty to ninety seconds’, that’s slightly wrong, ‘He went to my flat first, then Matt walked on to his flat five ‘B’, he was gone for sixty to ninety seconds before asking if I needed any help’. So he went to his flat five ‘B’ and was away for, a small portion of time, just enough really for me to have, have been to the toilet really, and then he came back to my flat after that sixty to ninety seconds and then, said ‘Do you need any help’, I said ‘No, just tell Jane that’, ‘E is unwell and come back when she’s done’. And then he went”.
1578 “Right. So”.
Reply “Then, and this is only from, this is not from a first hand account, but then he went to check on Kate and Gerry on the way back”.
1578 “Yes. So if I could just go through that ‘When I went to check the children I went to my flat first’?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1578 “’Then Matt walked to his flat five ‘B’”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1578 “Is that okay?”
01.47.47 Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’I believe that he then went’”.
Reply “No, no, that’s, that’s, that’s out of order there. ‘After sixty to ninety seconds he returns to flat five ‘D’’”.
1578 “’After sixty to ninety secs’?”
Reply “’He returns to five ‘D’, checks if I need any help, I say no and then I believe he went on to check the McCANN children’. And then ‘This is the final check before Madeleine was noticed missing’”.
1578 “’Checks if I needed help, I said no, I believe he then went’?”
Reply “’To check on the McCANN children’. And then we’re back in the , I mean, this is, I suppose all of this is just second hand information anyway, from my point of view, it says ‘This is the final check before Madeleine was noticed missing. Nothing appeared to be unusual and there was nothing that suggested we were being watched’, it’s all a little, it’s mainly kind of repetition and out of order. I don’t know quite what the, there was no mention of the shutters being checked at five, at five ‘A’, I’m not quite sure what hat’s referring to, but, in any case it’s going to be a comment from, from Matt. When we were talking about the timeline at some point, I don’t know whether that sort of cropped up here, Matt certainly made a comment that there was no suggestion that the shutters had been tampered with at nine o’clock, I’m not quite, I mean, I, I don’t think he went in through the patio door and well you’ve spoken to him anyway, but I don’t really know whether this is relevant to my testimony anyway”.
1578 “So you would like to remove this then?”
Reply “Well I don’t”.
1578 “If we remove”.
Reply “Yeah, from”.
1578 “’This is the final check before Madeleine was noticed missing’ if we remove that?”
01.49.46 Reply “Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, it’s mainly me just commenting on what Matt said”.
1578 “If we remove the remainder of the paragraph?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Down to ‘five ‘A’’?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean, I’m not quite sure what that’s sort of referring to there and, as I say, Matt did the check, not me”.
1578 “Okay. I think at that point, we are getting close to the end of the tape, it might be an idea to have a comfort break”.
Reply “Yeah, okay”.
1578 “Before we continue”.
Reply “We’re getting there”.
1578 “Yes, we are”.
Reply “So the time is ten fifty am and this interview is ceasing”