LawsuitTrial > McCann
v Gonçalo Amaral - Day 2 Witness No 1
testimony as it happened...
(13.09.2013, 10am) David Trickey. He is a
psychologist. He was contracted by Madeleine's parents
concerning the twins. He went to PDL to meet them, then
had some conversations on the phone with the McCanns,
but only two meetings (without the twins).
McCann family lawyer, Isabel Duarte, is the first to
question the witness.
says the issue here is the effects, on the twins, of the
Amaral book and the documentary.
your professional opinion what do you have to say?
he is a specialist in child trauma. He has worked with
ten families in cases involving abduction. (note:
unfortunately nobody asked what kind of abduction)
He saw the twins some weeks after Madeleine disappeared.
They were asking where she was. He helped to answer that
question. He says it is fundamental for a child to
believe the world is safe and secure. Thanks to their
age, the twins were protected from the book.
has two preoccupations: 1) anything affecting the
parents will have an impact on the children and 2) the
twins will have increasing access to books, etc. He adds
that it is easy to monitor young children but not
teenagers. He is afraid that when the twins eventually
read the Amaral book they will question their parents.
This could have an enormous impact on them.
concerned that the twins will believe that the book
hindered finding Madeleine, a belief that could lead to
despair. In all the other cases he worked on, the
children wanted to know if everything possible had been
also worried about the twins' friends having access to
the Amaral book. Children cope better if they have
social support and if their friends' families also
support their parents. As far as questions are
concerned, they can respond saying nobody knows what
happened, but what if someone turns up saying that what
happened to Madeleine is known? ...and refers to the
book? Because it's a book, it has extra credibility
(note : he likely meant "authority"). In such a
situation therefore it would be very difficult for the
twins to deny what the book states.
What do the parents do in daily life?
his concern is the children and most of his concern is
Are the parents anxious about keeping the twins away
from the book etc.?
there were occasions in which they had to control access
to the internet.
Why did you say the book had credibility?
that it is much more difficult, especially for children,
to dismiss a book written by a police officer who
expresses his ideas.
What are the effects on the children?
there's a difference between the impact of a book and
the impact of articles and news. He worries because the
book doesn't suggest but concludes.
What are the preoccupations concerning this family in
it's difficult to answer. The twins have done very well
so far because their parents managed
to protect them. He worries about the future however, when
the twins become independent. Some impact is
unavoidable. It is difficult to predict which one it
will be. He thinks the book leaves a feeling that the
world isn't secure and that the parents are somehow
dangerous. If they find that the book damaged the search
for Madeleine, they'll be angry or depressed.
TVI lawyer is a substitute, he has no questions.
Valentim de Carvalho (DVD production/distribution)
Have you had access to the book through the internet?
So you also had access to the comments about the book
through the internet?
The investigation Report was spread in the media,
translated into English and put on the internet. Does
this worry you?
that anything, any information that undermines the trust
of the children worries him.
Are you worried by the transcripts that are on the
he doesn't know what they are about and can't answer.
What if the facts are similar to what the investigation
the book is a clear statement that presents a unique
Is the death hypothesis the only thing that worries you?
no. The issue is the involvement of the parents.
asks permission to read an extract from the book.
Os resultados a que chegámos foram os
1. A menor Madeleine McCann morreu no
Ocean Club, da Vila da Luz, na noite de 3 de
Maio de 2007;
2. Ocorreu uma simulação de rapto;
3. Kate Healy e Gerald McCann são suspeitos
na ocultação do cadáver da sua filha;
4. A morte poderá ter sobrevindo em
resultado de um trágico acidente;
5. Existem indícios de negligência na guarda
e segurança dos filhos.
Translates as >
The results my team and I have arrived at
are the following:
1. The minor, Madeleine McCann died inside
apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Vila da
Luz, on the night of 3rd May 2007;
2. There was simulation of abduction.
3. Kate Healy and Gerald McCann are suspects
of involvement in the concealment of their
4. The death could have occurred as a result
of a tragic accident;
5. There are clues about the parents’
negligence concerning the care and safety of
the idea that the parents aren't able to keep the
children safe is terrifying for the children. Then
there's the issue of the parents simulating abduction.
The problem is that it isn't a suggestion but a
now asks for a reading of the Conclusion to the
Investigation Report dated 10th September 2007 which is
also on the internet.
Isabel Duarte objects to this reading, but the judge
overrules, saying it's within the files that were
released (Vol X, p. 2587-2602)
Por tudo o exposto resulta dos autos que :
A) A menor Madeleine McCann morreu no
apartamento 5A do Ocean Club da Praia da Luz
na noite do 03 de Maio de 2007.
B) Ocorreu uma simulação de rapto.
C) De forma a impossibilitar a morte da
menor antes das 22h, foi inventada uma
situação de vigilância das crianças do casal
McCann enquanto dormiam.
D) Kate McCann e Gerald McCann estão
envolvidos na ocultação do cadáver da sua
filha Madeleine McCann.
E) Neste momente parece não existirem ainda
fortes indícios de que a morte da menor não
tenha ocorrido devido a um trágico acidente.
F) Do apurado até ao momento tudo indica que
o casal McCann, como autodefesa, não queira
fazer a entrega de forma imediata e
voluntaria do cadáver, existindo uma forte
probabilidade de o mesmo ter sido
transladado do local inicial de deposição.
Esta situação é susceptível de levantar
questões quanto às circunstancias em que
ocorreu a morte da menor.
Translates as >
From all the elements that have been
exposed, it results that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the
apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on
the night of 3rd May 2007;
B) There was a simulation of abduction;
C) In order to make it appear impossible
that the death of the minor occurred before
22.00hr, a system of checks on the McCann
children while they slept was created;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are
involved in the concealment of the cadaver
of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there is no evidence that
the death of the minor didn't happen due to
a tragic accident;
F) From what has been established until now,
everything indicates that the McCanns, by
virtue of self preservation, don't want to
deliver immediately and voluntarily the
cadaver, even though there is a strong
possibility that the same was transported
from the initial place of deposition. This
situation consequently raises questions
about the circumstances under which the
death of the minor occurred.
his concern is that the book is more accessible and
easier to read.
Guerra & Paz's lawyer's questions
confirms that DT saw the twins only once in PDL, some
weeks after Madeleine's disappearance. – What about the
memory of a 2-year-old child? Will the child remember?
answers that the twins' age then was just around the
time when a child’s memory develops.
–What about the meetings with the McCanns?
the first meeting (actually his second intervention)
was requested as a support for the twins.
Did the twins show preoccupation for having been left
alone when sleeping?
he's not aware of that.
lawyer explains it was the reason why she had asked
Concerning the security issue (since parents are
expected to protect), is it possible that the fact they
were left alone resulted in some trauma?
pauses, then says he has no evidence of this.
Was your intervention only related to abduction?
his job was to minimize the trauma and the impact of
GP – Was your intervention about abduction or
he spoke of disappearance: where is Madeleine? We don't
At which age did the twins go to school?
Have you talked about the internet issue with the
he's aware that recently they had to forbid the twins to
look for information on the web.
In order to satisfy themselves that everything was done
to find Madeleine, will they not try to look for
information on the internet?
his concern is that the book is so easy to access.
Shouldn't we expect that sooner or later the twins will
read what's on the internet?
At which age should the parents speak about the book?
they'll have to do it before the twins discover by
themselves. The parents know better than anyone else
when they'll have to talk about it.
With the explanations of the parents will the book cause
trauma with the twins?
it's very difficult to say. His job is to reduce that
What if they feel the parents are concealing the book?
pauses, then says it's difficult to find out the right
Which option will cause the least damage to the twins.
If they don't find the right time, isn't it more
pauses, then says this is a difficult question.
It's even common knowledge in the media that in missing
children cases there's a big probability of abduction by
a parent. What causes more psychological damage, not
having the parents to help, access to the internet
without the parents having talked before or access
having spoken with the parents?
knowledge reduces the risk, but doesn't suppress it.
Santos Oliveira (GA lawyer) questions
observes that DT's job is with the parents and that he
hasn't seen the twins for a long time. Do the twins have
no idea about what's in the book?
he doesn't know. As they're young it's easy to protect
So up until now they don't know about the book?
Have they some idea that their parents were arguidos?
doesn't know. They (the McCanns and DT) never spoke
Do they know a book was banned and then authorized
SO – Are your preoccupations projections?
With your experience will it be possible to reduce the
effect (of the book)?
pauses, then says the impact is less between 20-30 years
of age but from 8 to 18 years it increases.
starts to ask why the children were alone... but the
judge overrules saying it is off topic.
judge (Maria Emília de Melo e Castro) is now asking
–How old are the twins ?