With thanks to Joana Morais for translation
From 0:00 to 2:10 - Extracts from "Ate
a Verdade"[To the Truth] show
where two Canadians psychics share their experiences regarding Madeleine
McCann case with Rita Ferro Rodrigues (English).
[FMF] Francisco Moita Flores
2:10 - Extract from that same show with Criminologist Francisco Moita
Flores [FMF] comment: "It is surprising for someone to discover the golf
course and a ravine, a ravine with a steep downslide... I don't know, I
believe the ravine is important. I would look at it again.
Rita Ferro Rodrigues [RFR]: Francisco, if you were the investigator you
would look at it again?
FMF: It's always good to have a look again, regardless of the provenance
of the information, where one has searched before.
2:40 - Cut to Julia Pinheiro's morning talk show.
Julia Pinheiro [JP]: Those were the mediums of "Ate a Verdade" on the
Madeleine McCann case. Hello, Hernani.
Hernani Carvalho [HC]: Good afternoon, dear Julia.
JP: Good afternoon, dear Hernani. Would you like to make a comment on
the information that we just watched?
HC: They are very interesting... In Portugal there is a certain
scepticism regarding this kind of people. I do not have to hold an
opinion on that at least that is not the important issue, in my opinion.
And it is not important, because, either the institutions are useful
with all the methods that they use or they are not, that is, there were
at certain moments people who wanted to request the help of the FBI to
assist the investigation. Well, we should start by saying that the FBI
does seek advice from psychics in difficult cases. So, either...
03:30: [Lower Third] Maddie disappeared almost five years ago...
JP: In the Anglo-Saxon culture, namely in England, that also happens.
JP: Specifically these same mediums.
HC: Precisely. In England, and in Canada, as you said, in the
Anglo-Saxon culture this is also used.
JP: These gentlemen are Canadian.
HC: It should be said that Scotland Yard also works with people that
allege that they feel those things, and in Canada the authorities that
make criminal investigations also consult that kind of people. In the
European continent it is uncommon; however, it is known that some police
forces have used mediums, in a more or less overtly manner. The
Judiciary Police itself did listen to things, texts, opinions of people
who say that they have, let us say, this sensations...
JP: We have Goncalo Amaral sitting next to you.
- [Lower Third] To follow: Goncalo Amaral returns to Praia da Luz.
HC: Exactly, this was just until he arrived.
JP: Who coordinated the entire investigation. This was just a warm up
until he arrived. [Laughs]
HC: So, without wishing to give my opinion relatively to what psychics
may feel or not, since we now have here the responsible for the
investigation, the first question that I will make him is...
JP: Good afternoon.
Goncalo Amaral [GA]: Good afternoon.
HC: And the first question is, Goncalo, did you receive or not
information from these people who have a special "phone" to the other
side and if you did, did you take that into account or not?
GA: In cases like this one, it is very common for messages to appear,
several information, some of which were staggering for the... - for
example, a drawing that I remember, an image, it was a figure of a
person who resembles someone who would appear in the case. Later on, I
am able to say who it was. Nevertheless, we the investigators are men of
facts. We rely on facts, in indicia, and we are to some extent sceptic
regarding these situations.
HC: So you received that kind of information?
GA: Lots and lots of information, just like the family, who also
received, who pondered about a few and even delivered emails and other
things to the Judiciary Police, saying were the body could be or where
it could have been placed - the Madeleine McCann family. There was
something initially, you've spoken about the FBI early on, when we
considered requesting the FBI assistance, the FBI was always... - the
FBI which is an US agency for criminal investigations - ...was always
willing to help. There was a set back by the National Directorate of the
Judiciary Police, due to a possible clash with the English police that
was working with us and the arrival of the FBI, but the first thing the
FBI wanted to do initially was to send us a, let us call it, a
clairvoyant, a medium that works with them. Which was...
JP: That was the FBI first procedural step?
GA: Immediately, in the first days. However, I believe the National
JP: It was SIC who brought them; six years later SIC took care of that.
GA: But it was not those gentlemen [reference to the Canadian mediums
who appeared in "Ate a Verdade" show].
JP: No, it wasn't them, it was a woman. They collaborate with
investigations in the US and in Canada, which is where they live and
where they are university professors in a university where these lines
of investigations are seen as pertinent. Whilst in reality, in our
southern European culture is not [seen as relevant]. But let's move to
the facts, Goncalo Amaral spoke about facts. In May it will be the 5th
anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, fact. Goncalo Amaral
and Hernani Carvalho returned to Praia da Luz and to the ravine, the one
mentioned by the mediums in the "Ate a Verdade" show. Let's watch it.
07:14: Cut to Hernani Carvalho at the top of the ravine, in Praia da
Luz. [Lower Third] "Maddie Case": Goncalo Amaral returns to Praia da
HC: Some of the key points mentioned in the TV program broadcast by SIC
a few days ago were precisely the beach and this ravine, and also a golf
course and all that makes sense with a thesis emerged in May 2007, that
said that the little girl could have been carried inside a sports bag or
in a golf bag, brought trough the golf course to this ravine and then
thrown here. Moita Flores said, in that show, that in doubt he would
also come back here. Goncalo Amaral, what did the police do here in
Praia da Luz?
GA: In the first night, searches were made using sniffer dogs, with the
help of the public, and all of this area was searched, here...
HC: But also the rocks down here?
GA: Yes, in the rocks down here, at the base of this ravine, probe rods
were used to search in the sand and in the soil in the ravine's base, in
order to release eventual odours of cadaver, and nothing was detected.
Aerial searches were conducted in the first days as well as at the
planning, the planning was preceded by an assessment, let us call it, an
overview of the entire area by a helicopter that was ceded by the civil
protection of Faro, and nothing was detected. As to that hypothesis, of
throwing a body - and I recall that the little girl's weight would be
about 30 kilos - from here to the sea, I would say that is impossible.
Notice that the sea is not immediately beneath here, the ravine does not
have a vertical steep, there is a vertical grade and the sea is still
far away. A great strength or almost a gigantic person would be needed
for the body to fall in the sea, and in the deep sea. There are photos,
taken in the rocks down bellow in the water, were we can see searching,
certainly he was not searching for his live daughter...
HC: Are you referring to Maddie's father?
GA: To Gerald McCann. Maddie's father.
HC: He was walking around here, in the rocks bellow?
GA: Yes, there are pictures of that.
HC: But in that case, he would have to have the firm belief that the
girl was dead.
GA: I do not believe that he was looking for crabs nor searching for a
live daughter. According to Moita Flores, it would be important to
return to this area, I believe so, even because there are people who
continue to say today that the body might be around here, and continue
to give information about places. It should be looked, the police should
make searches, they should reopen the process and resume the
investigations. There is much to be done still.
09:44 Cut to Studio
JP: Hernani, I hand over to you the first comments.
HC: The question is, following that thesis regarding the hypothesis that
the girl was carried in a bag...
JP: In a golf bag.
HC: In a golf bag or in a sports bag, the question is...
JP: Let me just show the picture. [Behind HC and GA there is a flat TV
screen, Gerald McCann carrying a Golf bag is shown] Here it is, Gerry
McCann with the golf bag, I have to stress that this
was taken by a British photojournalist,
HC: Without prejudice, I am not saying that it was Mr. McCann, it's
different. What I am saying is, in the hypothesis - which was one of the
theses at that time - that the girl was taken from the bedroom, carried
inside a golf bag, or inside a sports bag, by whomever made her leave
the bedroom, and then carried her through the golf field to the cliff...
We already know, and it is not difficult to understand, that is not
possible to throw a 30 kilos2 body from that point,
because the body would never fall inside water, never. With a small
rock, a rock with the size of a hand, it is impossible to toss it into
the ocean. So, the question is, would it be possible for the girl to
have been kept hidden at the cliff area and then be taken from there?
GA: It is possible; indeed that is the thesis, the conclusions that are
reached by the police until September of 2007. That the child's body was
kept somewhere. In the first night, the body was taken from the
apartment and placed somewhere, and it was not detected. The searches
made that night were to find a living child not a dead one. Then later,
we know, because of the indicia, we get that information from the
indicia that was found in the car rented 20 days later, that probably a
body, a cadaver was placed there and it was likely Madeleine McCann. The
FSS handled the information...
HC: We will speak about the FSS later on.
GA: I am talking about the information, we only had the information. I'm
not talking about what can be proved or not. The information that the
police had and was working with. We were at six months from the
beginning of the investigation, we should have followed that line, to
understand where that body - if there was a body - was placed...
HC: But the question is, how is it possible to keep a body in that cliff
without cadaver deterioration?
GA: In that place the body would always decay. The issue with the bag is
the following, Gerald McCann said at one point in time that he did not
have any sports bag. Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the
planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the
cadaver odour and blood, at the ends of July, early August, puts forward
that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag3,
he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag - and indeed a sports bag
existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment [rented by the
McCanns/5A] immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the
sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour.
Thus, those photographs exist, contrary to what anyone can say that they
did not own a sports bag - the sports bag was there. A sports bag, even
though there wasn't any brand like "Adidas" in the bag, but it was a bag
of that kind. So, what happened to that bag, what took place next, other
situations ensued relatively to another bag, something that it's not
worth mentioning now here, there are people who also talk about a bag...
That cliff area is an important zone, several people talked about it,
there were many important events that took place there, events that
people saw and suspected, in the golf course area, in the path to the
geodesic mark, all in that area. Therefore, it is an area where it is
worthwhile to make a search again. But to be searched in the scope of an
investigation that is reopened.
HC: Curiously, the whole area was thoroughly examined, that should be
GA: As well, yes.
HC: The whole area was examined, the whole area was acquired, the whole
area was divided?
GA: There is an important detail?
HC: You do not have access to that area, because today you can see that
certain parts are private, curiously, almost in the path that goes to
the cliff's escarpment.
GA: There is an important aspect and that is the diary of Mrs Kate
McCann. There are some who have the opinion the diary was written to be
read. At a certain point in time, following the dates given there just a
few days after the disappearance, Mrs. Kate McCann says that she is
running, doing her jogging ? the daughter is missing and she is doing
her training ? and in there, in that plateau that we are seeing right
now, she said that she was climbing it when she saw a number of
journalists, of people and that she begun suspecting that the body of
her daughter had been found. That is in her diary. She points to that
area. When they have hired?
HC: But pointing to that place, is using as basis that the child has
lost her life?!
GA: Exactly, it was always like that, since the beginning the parents,
at least Kate McCann, have always spoken about the death of the child.
Those emails that they delivered [to the PJ] of a clairvoyant that
explained where the body could be, beneath the church area, inside a
HC: I cannot agree with that? I believe it was Gerry. Gerry said, ?If
you think the girl is dead then show me her body?.
GA: Well, perhaps he knows that there is no body. That is another
question; I do not know why he says that there must be a body. In order
to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body.
Actually, in this case, if we could abstract ourselves of the name of
the child that disappeared, of the child's parents and just look at the
facts, in an objective manner and move forward with the investigation,
facts would speak for themselves! There is no point in saying that the
child is dead, or that the child is alive, what we need is to work the
investigation and carry it out to the end, something that was not done.
Let us forget for a few moments who is Madeleine McCann, who are
Madeleine McCann's parents, and let us look at the facts objectively. At
facts that are in a process, that some have already tried to dismiss as
being historical, as if the process had no importance. We will only know
the truth ? and that is what matters - and in that truth we will know if
the child is alive or dead, and where she can be, what happened to her;
if we proceed based on those facts.
HC: But it is the parent's conviction, or at least is the conviction
that is best known, that the child is missing and the parents have
reiterated that they believe the child is alive.
GA: I don't think so?
JP: That she is alive?
GA: I don't think so, and I'll tell you why. I will give you an example,
Hernani. There was a certain lawyer, who went to dams searching for a
body. Metodo 3, an investigation agency that worked for the couple,
hired that lawyer, to link two cases, the Joana Cipriano case and the
Madeleine case. He was searching for a body. Today, defending him, in a
libel suit that I have moved against him is the McCann's lawyer [Isabel
Duarte]. So if he says the child is dead
4, why are
the McCanns' defending him? Why are the McCanns in court [against me]?
This is the kind of contradictions that no one understands?
JP: Indeed no one understands that. Let us watch now?
HC: Let us go to the apartment.
JP: Let us go to the apartment. Let us tackle the facts, the facts
mentioned by Goncalo Amaral.
JP: Fact: May, five years since Madeleine McCann disappeared. After we
saw the considerations made by the mediums in the TV program ?Ate ?
Verdade?, we are going to ask someone who was involved in the process,
Goncalo Amaral and Hernani Carvalho our man on the field. They have
returned to Praia da Luz to the very place, to the bedroom door, from
where the child disappeared.
17: 17 Cut to Apartment 5A, Praia da Luz, Algarve
HC: Madeleine McCann disappeared on the 3rd of May of 2007
from this apartment in Praia da Luz. From the apartment 5A of the Ocean
Club. Moita Flores, for example, does not believe the child could have
been taken through this window. In fact, the window is right next to the
door [HC points to the door right next to him, turns to Goncalo Amaral
and asks him] Objectively, I would ask you if, in your perception, would
it be possible for the little girl to have disappeared through this
GA: It is our conviction, and from the indicia that were collected
during those initial months, that it would be materially impossible for
this window to be the means of entry or exit, particularly since there
are no traces of a break-in. What we have instead are vestiges of a
simulation inside - namely a simulation5 where the
window is opened. There are fingerprints of Kate McCann opening the
window towards her left hand-side, whereas she says the window has
always been closed, with the shutters always down and therefore all
these... There are no footprints or anything similar. Undeniably, this
window, as I have said before, is a window ?facing the world' and it is
where the solution of the case lies.
HC: As the investigators put it, no one enters through a door and then
exits through a window!
GA: It is a fact and if you watch closely, the door it is less exposed
than the window. It would be much more spectacular to exit through the
window rather than the door, which is rather more hidden, more receded
than the window. Therefore, this door would be a more obvious away to
18: 46 The scene then changes with both HC and GA walking past the Ocean
Club's information board at the streets intersection. As they pass
underneath another of the apartment's windows, the living room window,
GA draws HC's attention to it and comments:
GA: That is the other window where inside is that
sofa where blood vestiges were found, which the FSS said that it
could belong to Madeleine McCann?
HC: Behind that window?
GA: Yes, on the inside.
HC: Where the blood vestiges were found by the floor?
GA Yes, by the floor and where there was also cadaver odour, besides the
19:11 Camera pans briefly at the rear of Apartment's 5A [garden corner
where cadaver odour was also detected] before focusing in the rear
access staircase to the same living room area GA was just referring to.
Immediately afterwards GA and HC enter the small gate that opens
directly to a public road and climb the stairs.
HC: So, this was usually the service entrance; the street access of
apartment 5A, right?
GA: Exactly, the apartments, or rather the manner in which that group of
tourists entered their apartments was from the rear; both the McCann
couple as well as the others, which were on the ground-floor, on the
other side. This raises questions such as? The path that is there
[pointing towards the alleyway] was the one used by the other members.
When Jane Tanner said that she goes up the street, and walks around in
order to go home, that to us rings hollow because this was the usual
pathway. Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came
to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here
[sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom.
Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended
arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key.
There is a report from Control Risks6, the first
private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns]
in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald
McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that
Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the
kitchen, in the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started.
Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter
through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no
traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used
gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through
here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor
in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make
others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the
child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
HC: The parents have said that they were able to keep an eye on the
apartment from the restaurant [Tapas] but that is hard to see how,
particularly bearing in mind that it was night. Goncalo Amaral, Dr.
Moita Flores, said a few days ago, publicly, that it is his profound
belief that Maddie likely died in this apartment, what is your
GA: My conviction is identical, based on the evidence. [small cut/edit
at 21:09] So, exactly what happened? There are the blood vestiges, the
cadaver odour that appeared precisely in the place where the blood was,
that appeared in the couple's bedroom, that appeared here [pointing to
the apartment's backyard] in the shrubs that were there, at the back.
Add to that the contradictions and the inconsistencies of all the
testimonies, and then there is something that should have been made, the
reconstruction of the events, which was refused by the witnesses, by the
[McCann] friends; the couple never came back for it and until today that
remains to be done. That would be enlightening.
GA: The investigation process should not have ended, in October ,
in the way that it did. From then on, it was six months up to the
archival, and today continues to be archived. The answer for the case is
in that investigation, that is there, gaining dust, stored in a court
archive until it's ?dead'. Or maybe, until someone is brave enough to
order the reopening of the process, and continue the investigation.
22:19 Cut back to studio
JP: Hernani, You have spoken a while ago about something public, that I
myself don't understand how it's related to this: hairs?
HC: Yes. I don't know if you remember this, of the times that we worked
together on this case? In other times.
JP: At another place [referring to when her morning talk show was
broadcast by TVI]
HC: Suddenly, Madeleine's hairs where all over the place! Hairs were
sent to the FSS, hairs were sent to the Lab, hairs were sent to the
police, hairs everywhere.
GA: Too many hairs.
HC: Please explain, how is it possible for a child who disappeared to
have so much hair?
GA: I don't know, but it is a fact that there were several hairs, that
were sent, and the conclusion is that they likely belonged to the child.
Even the hairs that appeared in the boot of the car rented 20 days later
[by the McCanns], they were sent to the FSS [Forensic Science Service].
HC: Is it possible for me to have a hair and than say ?this hair belongs
to Mr. Jos?Ant?io? [figure of speech]?
GA: I was about to explain that. The
FSS stated that due to the hair tone, they belonged to Madeleine
McCann, but that they couldn't extract the DNA because the hairs did not
have any roots. Nowadays, labs in Europe can actually extract DNA
without the roots, and arrive to a conclusion, if the DNA belongs to
that person or not. Furthermore, those hairs can help us understand if
the child - like her grandfather said, some journalists also said that
at the time - did take an antihistaminic in order to sleep at night. And
then consider the influence that it could have produced. Those hairs, if
they still exist and if they do belong to Madeleine, and if she was
indeed ? her siblings never woke up in that night ? given, like her
grandfather said in the English television; if the McCanns gave the
children Calpol7 at night in order for them, or for
the little girl to sleep? From that point on, we might be able to arrive
to a conclusion regarding what happened. When they write in a book that
the girl's sleeping disorders had ended years ago, that is a lie, since
the problems that concern that child, existed to the last day, to the
day of her disappearance. And there is evidence that establishes that.
HC: Goncalo, I have to tell you this, and you know that this is public.
Since the beginning, I have always thought that it was very strange that
Madeleine disappeared; but there were several conclusions that one could
formulate particularly due to the other two children that did not
disappear. However, there is a question ? and we are already without
time to continue ? there is a question that I must ask: Who decided that
the FSS should be the one, instead of any other forensic lab, to make
all those analysis?
GA: The Police Directorate, we wanted to ?trust' in the English police?
HC: That is all that I wanted to know! Okay!
HC: It was just that. There are several excellent laboratories, famous
all over the world in Switzerland, in?
GA: We didn't want?
HC: ?it had to be in England!
GA: It is similar to the non-arrival of the FBI, we didn't want to
create friction, a ?diplomatic incident?.
JP: It was due to a diplomatic settlement that everything turned out the
way it did.
GA: It is due to diplomacy that we are now here.
HC: Thank you, Goncalo.
JC: I thank Goncalo Amaral - who was truly committed to this case - for
coming here today, for clarifying and for providing us with information
regarding some aspects of this case.
Ends at 25: 39
SIC - Querida Julia [Dear Julia], Morning Talk Show, broadcast by SIC,
February 17, 2012